Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

This is a discussion on Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I loved it, I thought it was a great read. I dont think he bashed anyones choices, I think he was able to give us ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array alexcantslee's Avatar
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    I loved it, I thought it was a great read. I dont think he bashed anyones choices, I think he was able to give us his opinions based on what he had seen and what he happened to have seen is a very different angle than what most of us have seen. All he said was based on what he had witnessed first hand his decision was the .45ACP was the best round.

    I for one enjoyed very much not hearing conjecture or a lot of statistics and math about what rounds do what under certain circumstances. Sometimes the "why" isn't important.

    Alex!

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    This thread is not without any merit. In fact, if it made one person here think and consider what the message was, then it served a valuable purpose.

    I'll stand as an example..........After breezing though it, I decided that I really wanted to have my HD 12 GA bedside rather than locked in the cabinet. I moved it today.

    I had moved it into the cabinet after having it at the range, and just never got around to bringing it into the BR. Me bad.

    So that is an example of a good outcome from this article.
    If you go with a 12 ga, please do yourself and family a favor and do not use 00 buck. I was recently witness to the damage that 00 buck can do and I will never use it for home defense. Way way way too much penetration.
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    If you go with a 12 ga, please do yourself and family a favor and do not use 00 buck. I was recently witness to the damage that 00 buck can do and I will never use it for home defense. Way way way too much penetration.
    +1, Bird shot would be a getter choice IMO....
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    If you go with a 12 ga, please do yourself and family a favor and do not use 00 buck. I was recently witness to the damage that 00 buck can do and I will never use it for home defense. Way way way too much penetration.
    Agreed, very much. ^^

    If you live alone and have no guests or the other person(s) sleep in the same bed/room as you, then okay buckshot.
    Otherwise forget about that inside of a home. As noted the penetration is high.
    Same applies as a rule for shared wall dwellers such as those who live in apartments, condos, townhouses and duplex type buildings. As well if you live in an RV or mobile home and are in an environment where others are around your 360 degrees then this rule applies to you too. No 12 gauge 00/000 buckshot. And definitely no 3" magnum!!!!

    This should be a no brainer but sadly it is not to the point it even goes against convention and lore.

    In 12 gauge 2 3/4" #4 buckshot is a good balance between deer buckshot and bird shot, which is intended to kill (not wound) as at distances of 75 yds. and greater...Something no HD shotgun would be purposed for!


    Source - Module 12 :: Shot Pattern Reproduction




    Source - Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds

    Or even, and I know this will be deemed heresy, birdshot.
    Specifically #2 or BB sized shot (nothing smaller!) and optimally using _modern_ heavy shot such as tungsten.

    Good to high muzzle velocity and higher density than steel resulting in good to high energy albeit at short distances, as related to 160 lb+ beings as opposed to birds. Which is all one needs being inside a residence that is normal.
    Distances of 25' and MUCH less are what were talking about where real world most HD situations occur at point blank (inches from barrel) to roughly 10' (ten feet). Spread at that distance is same as anything including deer buckshot (00/000).

    Maximizing real potential to stop a threat while reducing potential of errant/missed shot penetration to other living spaces is key for many if not most Americans. Specifically people who live in or among shared living spaces.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array PointnClick's Avatar
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    Awesome read... when I finished this, a thought occurred to me...

    Who really knows more about car crashes... the guys who come up with the crash-safety reports, or the wrecker driver that drags them off the highway...?
    "Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"

  7. #51
    Senior Member Array RebelRabbi's Avatar
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    I wonder how long they argued Flint vs. Percussion?

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Agreed, very much. ^^

    If you live alone and have no guests or the other person(s) sleep in the same bed/room as you, then okay buckshot.
    Otherwise forget about that inside of a home. As noted the penetration is high.
    Same applies as a rule for shared wall dwellers such as those who live in apartments, condos, townhouses and duplex type buildings. As well if you live in an RV or mobile home and are in an environment where others are around your 360 degrees then this rule applies to you too. No 12 gauge 00/000 buckshot. And definitely no 3" magnum!!!!

    This should be a no brainer but sadly it is not to the point it even goes against convention and lore.

    In 12 gauge 2 3/4" #4 buckshot is a good balance between deer buckshot and bird shot, which is intended to kill (not wound) as at distances of 75 yds. and greater...Something no HD shotgun would be purposed for!


    Source - Module 12 :: Shot Pattern Reproduction




    Source - Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds

    Or even, and I know this will be deemed heresy, birdshot.
    Specifically #2 or BB sized shot (nothing smaller!) and optimally using _modern_ heavy shot such as tungsten.

    Good to high muzzle velocity and higher density than steel resulting in good to high energy albeit at short distances, as related to 160 lb+ beings as opposed to birds. Which is all one needs being inside a residence that is normal.
    Distances of 25' and MUCH less are what were talking about where real world most HD situations occur at point blank (inches from barrel) to roughly 10' (ten feet). Spread at that distance is same as anything including deer buckshot (00/000).

    Maximizing real potential to stop a threat while reducing potential of errant/missed shot penetration to other living spaces is key for many if not most Americans. Specifically people who live in or among shared living spaces.

    - Janq
    Let me just say that I had a unique scenario in which a friend has some houses and property in which he was getting ready to demolish. I asked if I could come out and test a few different types of firearms and calibers along with different types of bullets.

    The 12ga with 00 buckshot went through an interior (sheet rock) wall and exterior (typical T1-11)wall of one building. It then proceeded about 20 feet to the next building and through the exterior wall and interior wall of that building. It finally stopped after 8 of the BB's went through both sides of a fiberglass bathtub. Some of the BB's were sitting on the linoleum and another was stuck.

    I wanted to post this finding because I was a little shocked and have heard quite a few people saying that 00 buck is all they would ever use for home defense. I really hope even one person will see this and consider their choice. There is no doubt that 00 buck would kill a family member in another room if they were struck. Per my findings, I think it might go through 3 interior walls with ease. That is three rooms guys.
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  9. #53
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    Morgue Results...............

    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    If you go with a 12 ga, please do yourself and family a favor and do not use 00 buck. I was recently witness to the damage that 00 buck can do and I will never use it for home defense. Way way way too much penetration.
    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    +1, Bird shot would be a getter choice IMO....
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Agreed, very much. ^^

    If you live alone and have no guests or the other person(s) sleep in the same bed/room as you, then okay buckshot.
    Otherwise forget about that inside of a home. As noted the penetration is high.
    Same applies as a rule for shared wall dwellers such as those who live in apartments, condos, townhouses and duplex type buildings. As well if you live in an RV or mobile home and are in an environment where others are around your 360 degrees then this rule applies to you too. No 12 gauge 00/000 buckshot. And definitely no 3" magnum!!!!

    This should be a no brainer but sadly it is not to the point it even goes against convention and lore.

    In 12 gauge 2 3/4" #4 buckshot is a good balance between deer buckshot and bird shot, which is intended to kill (not wound) as at distances of 75 yds. and greater...Something no HD shotgun would be purposed for!


    Source - Module 12 :: Shot Pattern Reproduction




    Source - Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds

    Or even, and I know this will be deemed heresy, birdshot.
    Specifically #2 or BB sized shot (nothing smaller!) and optimally using _modern_ heavy shot such as tungsten.

    Good to high muzzle velocity and higher density than steel resulting in good to high energy albeit at short distances, as related to 160 lb+ beings as opposed to birds. Which is all one needs being inside a residence that is normal.
    Distances of 25' and MUCH less are what were talking about where real world most HD situations occur at point blank (inches from barrel) to roughly 10' (ten feet). Spread at that distance is same as anything including deer buckshot (00/000).

    Maximizing real potential to stop a threat while reducing potential of errant/missed shot penetration to other living spaces is key for many if not most Americans. Specifically people who live in or among shared living spaces.

    - Janq
    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    I wanted to post this finding because I was a little shocked and have heard quite a few people saying that 00 buck is all they would ever use for home defense. I really hope even one person will see this and consider their choice. There is no doubt that 00 buck would kill a family member in another room if they were struck. Per my findings, I think it might go through 3 interior walls with ease. That is three rooms guys.
    All excellent comments! We live in a "Little House in the Big Woods" about .5 to .75 miles from the nearest house that only has part-time summer vacationers at best, about .25 miles from a occasional weekender's house.

    We have no children here, and my wife and I sleep in the same bed and bedroom.

    Based on the above, I am not worried about over-penetration of buckshot. I would, however, be cognizant of the closest cabin and that direction of fire with no obstruction. Penetration is one of my considerations, to be totally honest, but at close quarters anything from 4 shot up ought to do the job, but the comment about No. 2 is taken to heart too. I've shot enough objects to understand the potential for ah...."over enthusiasm"..........

    If you believe I have failed to consider this thoroughly, please feel free to make constructive comments.

    Yea, the 3" Magnums are just tough to shoot.

    I have 2.75" regular brass loaded right now, in a 9 Shot 20" Mossberg 500.

    When we start having children and grandchildren around the Mossberg will get put away under lock and key.

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Veering off topic here, but couple of thoughts...

    Any projectile that will penetrate to the vitals on a human will also penetrate several interior walls.

    Buckshot seems to penetrate LESS than typical handgun rounds, which makes sense. You're talking about a ~ 60 gr pellet going ~ 1250 fps, which is less momentum than most any handgun bullet.

    See tests here - The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

    If you have friendlies behind your target, you should not be firing at all. Remember, know what your target is, AND what is beyond it.

    I view the shotgun as a last line of defense, to be used only once everyone in my family is in the safe room (our bedroom). If a home invader tries to breach the bedroom door, then the shotgun gets fired. The invader can only come from one direction, and a miss is highly unlikely (range is 10 feet). Any pellets that go through-and-through (unlikely) will most likely not have enough momentum left to exit our home.

    I use #1 buckshot, as testing I've seen seems to point that it is the best blend of penetration depth and number of pellets.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointnClick View Post
    Who really knows more about car crashes... the guys who come up with the crash-safety reports, or the wrecker driver that drags them off the highway...?
    The crash safety experts - they get to know/examine what was going on before the accident like speed, lane position, skid marks, etc and what happened after the accident like internal damage to the vehicle, etc. They also get to do stuff under controlled conditions.

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Veering off topic here, but couple of thoughts...

    Any projectile that will penetrate to the vitals on a human will also penetrate several interior walls.

    Buckshot seems to penetrate LESS than typical handgun rounds, which makes sense. You're talking about a ~ 60 gr pellet going ~ 1250 fps, which is less momentum than most any handgun bullet.

    See tests here - The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

    If you have friendlies behind your target, you should not be firing at all. Remember, know what your target is, AND what is beyond it.

    I view the shotgun as a last line of defense, to be used only once everyone in my family is in the safe room (our bedroom). If a home invader tries to breach the bedroom door, then the shotgun gets fired. The invader can only come from one direction, and a miss is highly unlikely (range is 10 feet). Any pellets that go through-and-through (unlikely) will most likely not have enough momentum left to exit our home.

    I use #1 buckshot, as testing I've seen seems to point that it is the best blend of penetration depth and number of pellets.
    You are sadly mistaken if you think 00 buckshot penetrates less then typical handgun rounds. I understand that you mentioned #1 and so that is different, but my findings were why I was shocked. If you read my original post, I tested several calibers and guns. I can tell you that a G-19 shooting 9mm FMJ did not come near with the same penetration that 00 buck shot did. It did not even fully penetrate the second buildings outside siding. The 00 buckshot when clean through that exterior and the interior wall and went through both sides of a fiberglass bathtub.
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array PointnClick's Avatar
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    Ned sez...

    The crash safety experts - they get to know/examine what was going on before the accident like speed, lane position, skid marks, etc and what happened after the accident like internal damage to the vehicle, etc. They also get to do stuff under controlled conditions.

    Could be... but I have my doubts. First flaw in this theory: they don't use meat.
    "Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    You are sadly mistaken if you think 00 buckshot penetrates less then typical handgun rounds. I understand that you mentioned #1 and so that is different, but my findings were why I was shocked. If you read my original post, I tested several calibers and guns. I can tell you that a G-19 shooting 9mm FMJ did not come near with the same penetration that 00 buck shot did. It did not even fully penetrate the second buildings outside siding. The 00 buckshot when clean through that exterior and the interior wall and went through both sides of a fiberglass bathtub.
    Did you shoot into the exact same area of the home?

    Weird stuff can happen. All I know is that 60 gr at 1250 fps (buckshot pellet) has less momentum than 115 gr at roughly the same velocity (9mm).

    Of course, it's possible that some pellets "cleared the way" for other pellets, leading to greater penetration overall. Like I said, weird stuff can happen.

    The testing done at "boxotruth" contradicts what you saw - so, you must clearly be delusional...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    See tests here - The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

    If you have friendlies behind your target, you should not be firing at all. Remember, know what your target is, AND what is beyond it.
    I can't even begin to express the contempt with which I hold the fabled Box O' Truth. Seeing how many water filled jugs a given round will penetrate does not (IMHO) provide realistic results in the self defense arena. It only shows how many jugs you can eliminate.

    As far as friendlies in the area, that's why we practice. If I'm taking fire and my loved ones are also subject to incoming lead, my first priority is taking THEM and myself to a position of cover and concealment. My number 2 action is returning accurate, fight stopping fire. I don't believe necessarily in the classic TNT or the Thru-N-Thru gunshot wound. However since I do recognize the mere possibility I load my primary mag in my carry piece with Glaser or MagSafe ammo to absolutely preclude that possibility. Those loads also preclude the threat of a miss and a bounced shot off a hard object. No ricochet problems.

    Now understand, I also know that these loads might not penetrate in a cold climate with layers of clothes. Like right now, the temps here in Miami are supposed to drop into the 20's tonight including the wind chill. When I carry in this weather, I load CorBon DPX or Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dot.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  16. #60
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    hee,hee,

    i love the internut.


    on one forum you got a guy that is working in the morgue and says .45 is ta' best, on another forum, another guy works in the morgue and 9 is fine'.



    hhmmm!

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