Staggering Ammo ???

This is a discussion on Staggering Ammo ??? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Okay, so I admit; I'm a "newb" as demonstrated in this question, but I have to ask and am also looking for thoughts/opinions on this ...

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Thread: Staggering Ammo ???

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    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    Question Staggering Ammo ???

    Okay, so I admit; I'm a "newb" as demonstrated in this question, but I have to ask and am also looking for thoughts/opinions on this practice.....

    I just purchased 40 rounds of CorBon DXP 160gr .45ACP ammo and although I am very pleased with the appearance and discussion of expansion (ballistics) with this bullet, I also have a bit of concern for such a massive, deep-cavity HP not having much penetrative power; should I ever have an intruder wearing heavy clothing, coat/jacket, etc.

    So here's what I've done with my two Glock 21 magazines... already having Federal Hydroshocks as my previous ammo, I have "staggered" them in sequence. In other words; one bullet a Corbon DPX, the next a Hydroshock, next a DPX, next a Hydroshock......... you get the picture: alternating bullet type through the entire stack of the magazine.

    In theory, bullets should go "bang" when fired. But my question is (since I have not tested nor fired these DXP bullets in my Glock); could this pose more of a misfeeding or jamming problem or is this a totally stupid and risky thing to do altogether? At the newb level, I don't see a big issue but I am looking to the more experienced folks and LEOs on here for advice.
    Anyone ever done this type of alternating bullet types? (Granted - eventually I will and hope to just have DXPs in the future, as I am really liking this bullet!)
    But for now, until I do some test firing and use up all of my older Hydroshock ammo, I thought about doing this alternating bullet idea as a "security factor" for concerns over the potential lack of penetration because of the very obvious hollow point cavity in these bullets.

    Or should I just stack the entire magazine with all of the same type bullets?

    My reason for doing this: not wanting the Hydroshocks to just go to waste, and also thinking that if one has a penetration issue, if it called for a second shot, the alternate (heavier grain) bullet would do the trick.

    Okay, let the critique begin.........
    Boomer Sooner!

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  3. #2
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    Ok, I'll bite. It's generally referred to as a "Dutch load."

    Biggest thing that jumps out to me is that you have not fired the DPX through your Glock. That's a problem--you're betting your life on a bullet without knowing if it will function reliably in your carry weapon. So get down to the range and test the Corbon and then I'd say test some of these staggered mags and see what happens.
    God is love (1 John 4:8)

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    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    Oh, you bet. I plan on shooting these DPXs as soon as I can! I'm just throwing the idea above, out there, because I do know that the Hydroshocks have worked just fine in previous range shooting.

    These Corbon bullets have really been calling my name for a long time, and I finally was able to get hold of a few boxes at the local Cabelas - but as you stated above, I didn't want to just toss my Hydroshocks.

    And this also gets me thinking... do a lot of people perhaps do this "dutch load" thing if there is a concern with the JHPs not having enough penetration?
    Anyone prefer staggering FMJs "and" JHPs in the same magazine stack?
    Boomer Sooner!

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    Member Array louie19's Avatar
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    I prefer to have the same cartridge in each magazine. Then mark your magazines. I think you'll get more consistent results that way and if a magazine or a cartridge proves to be bad, you can mark it and not use it again.

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    Member Array Gearslammer's Avatar
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    I, myself, like the idea of "ball, hollow, ball, hollow", but I heard thats it was illegal to do. Seeing that you are actually setting out to "kill" somebody in the anti-gunners eyes. Don't know for sure if it is illegal or not and can't find any proof that it is or isn't. A lawyer is a better person who can find this answer for you.

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    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    Wow, never heard of the "not legal" issue before. Thanks for the feedback there. But it sounds kind of weird... as they're all legal bullets. Goodness knows, there are some strange laws out there though.

    Not worrying about the "killing somebody" issue, as that's not the point at all. My point is the concern over whether these DPXs have the ability to penetrate through potential thick layers of clothing; enough to stop the threat ???

    A BG in a t-shirt, I would have no worries. A BG in a heavy coat, followed by layers of shirt, jacket, or even body armor (yep, BGs have access to that stuff too) and I'd question the ability for these 160gr. JHPs to penetrate that.

    I know there's a lot of debate and discussion already, over the preferred self-defense ammo that should be used. I think we can all agree that none of us really agree 100% on any one brand, type, etc.; and that's okay. Just like gun selection, etc. - it's all what the individual preference is. For that matter, heck; we could be stacking our magazines with an alternate type and name brand of bullet and probably never have enough magazines to accomodate all of the ones on the market today!

    Again, thanks for the input on the legal issue consideration. Never thought of it from that perspective. Like I said, since these are all legal, store-purchased bullets, one might not think of it in that light.

    When I went through my class in Oklahoma (Self-Defense Act), I do not recall ammo legality being discussed, and here in WA state, I've never heard of it being an issue even talked about. I do see your point, though.

    I guess my final point to dispute that would be that if a BG were to break in my home and be coming at my family or myself with a knife or whatever, I'd stop nothing short of throwing our cats on them to save our lives! LOL

    Anyone else know of this being a legal issue with stacking different types of ammo? So what if you had a situation where you had a full stack of one brand name ammo, but happened to have one 230gr vs. the rest 185gr, etc. etc. ??? Kind of the same concept..............
    Boomer Sooner!

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    Member Array Charlie8D's Avatar
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    I have carried the " Ball ammo- Hollow point " before, but knew for sure that the weapon would feed everything well , by testing it loaded that way .
    With so many ammo load choices, today, I just carry 1 type of load.

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    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearslammer View Post
    I, myself, like the idea of "ball, hollow, ball, hollow", but I heard thats it was illegal to do. Seeing that you are actually setting out to "kill" somebody in the anti-gunners eyes. Don't know for sure if it is illegal or not and can't find any proof that it is or isn't. A lawyer is a better person who can find this answer for you.
    This sounds like a firearm urban legend to me. Even in the irrational world of gun control, this wouldn't make sense. Banning hollow points? Sure, they'd be stupid enough to do that. But using them mixed with another legal round? I don't think so.

    I'd wager it comes more from a fear of how it would look in front of a jury. Sort of like that Arizona guy who killed someone (he said in self defense) with a 10mm, and the prosecutor played up that it was some kind of elephant killing round and why in the world did you need to carry a gun that powerful. That kind of nonsense.

    As for Dutch carry, I could easily be wrong, but I have a fear of causing feed problems by using different types together. It shouldn't be a worry anyway if you are using modern, well made ammunition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearslammer View Post
    I, myself, like the idea of "ball, hollow, ball, hollow", but I heard thats it was illegal to do. Seeing that you are actually setting out to "kill" somebody in the anti-gunners eyes.
    Not illegal. Military carries Ball for reasons of it's own (GC). Ball kills many people dead!

    Many LEOs for years carried ball for penetration. Now, most carry some brand of HP. If they were really concerned about clothes stopping a round, they'd go back to ball. Sometimes clothing can downgrade the performance of a HP, but that's only after you've plugged a hole in the BG.

    If anything would be looked at at as "killer" rounds in the eyes of a jury, it would be the HP, "Designed" for max damage. Ball is considered more "humane."

    I load two HPs to 1 ball. My reasoning is that I may have to fire through a windshield (in either direction), which can deflect a bullet from Point of Aim. It's my firm believe that a solid hit with either is enough to end most any threat.
    Last edited by OldVet; January 31st, 2010 at 05:59 PM.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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    Member Array DwnRangeKing's Avatar
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    I have a Glock 17 and ONE time at the range I had a mag loaded half and half (the first 5 in the mag were the old cheap ones, and then new expensive ones on top). The new expensive ones got ate up no problem, but, I had a failure to feed when I got to the second (cheap) rounds.
    Because of that I will not dutch load my mags. A failure to feed on the range because of this is no big deal, but why take a chance when it is for real?
    Molon Labe

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    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    Well, in my case, ALL of the ammo is hollow point. As I originally posted, it's just alternating between Federal Hydroshock (older version, not HSTs) 165gr and CorBon DPX 160gr .45ACP. That's how I have the clips staggered (dutch loaded) now, assuming that if the CorBons work just fine, eventually (and likely very soon) I will have both clips loaded with just the CorBon ammo only. (an obvious upgrade of ammo from the older Hydroshocks to the newer CorBon DPX.)

    But it did get me to thinking............... would it be a bad thing to alternate every other, every two or every three rounds with regular FMJ rounds simply because of the penetration concern?
    And a big caveat to this theory that I just though of......... I am assuming there is only ONE bad guy (oops!) If, Heaven forbid, there were two or more........ it makes sense to have consistent ammo throughout your entire magazine. I mean, you'd want to offer up the BGs equal opportunity perforation, correct? (LOL) Seriously though, that's something to consider as well... seeing as it's entirely possible that one could be gang attacked versus just one lone BG coming at you.

    So far, I guess I've been fortunate. I've shot all kinds of range ammo and hollow points through my glock 21, and I have NEVER had one misfeed, jam or fail to fire. If I put a bullet in my glock and pull the trigger, the gun goes "bang." It simply works. So I really don't have any big concern that the CorBon will not feed; it's more of a "gees, look at the hollow point cavity of this bullet!" thing.
    Boomer Sooner!

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    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Most of the HP ammo used by LEOs nowadays has been tested for penetration through clothing; A whole bunch of the rounds are designed to still function despite having to penetrate heavy clothing, so I wouldn't worry about that. A lot of folks I know use the same ammo our local LEOs use, not only for legal reasons, but also because of the penetration concerns. I know when the FBI did it's testing back in the early 90s, they found that the Hydra-Shock rounds would pass through windshield glass as well as thick clothing and still perform....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    Member Array Gearslammer's Avatar
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    Cool, Thanks Tango and Oldvet.... Ya I also think it a urban gun myth, but don't know. I asked a couple of lawyers and they didn't know off hand. I know one said "it wouldn't be a good idea", but I think he was an anti gun nut anyways.

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    Staggering Ammo??

    Go check this link on testing of Personal Protection Ammo. tests include going thru 4 layers of denim before the test medium.
    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    Darn I read this thread and thought the ammo was DRUNK : ) J/K 45 should
    be good with any hollow point,No need to stagger.
    H/D
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    IT'S OUR RIGHTS>THEY WANT TO WRONG
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