discussion at Walmart

This is a discussion on discussion at Walmart within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've seen 40's fired in a 45 at our range also. Same results as posted above. If I get time I'll take a pic and ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array showmebob's Avatar
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    I've seen 40's fired in a 45 at our range also. Same results as posted above. If I get time I'll take a pic and post it.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emrah View Post
    Last time I went to the range I saw a guy and his buddy in the very far shooting bay lookng confused and looking around. Finally one of them becons me over and asks if I "...know anything about rifles?" I say, sure, what's the problem? He says they loaded this ammo into his gun and it won't fire.

    Ok, what's the caliber? 30-06. Can I see the box of ammo? It's .308 Win. Oh boy. I inform him that he's using a totally different round than what his gun is. Luckily, his .308 is shorter than the 30-06 and somehow even when he closed the bolt, the firing pin didn't make contact and the round could not be fired.

    I told him to zip-tie the action open (it was a semi-auto if I recall) and while pointing the gun downrange to try and pry that round out of there. He looked pretty embarassed.

    Emrah
    I guess not everyone learned from their dad.

    It was good that your were around to help him.

    If he did not thank you, I thank you for him
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  4. #33
    Member Array mauser1959's Avatar
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    Just as aside, a 308 should be able to be fired in a 30/06 rifle... there is only 3mm difference in case length. That is not to say it would be safe, but possible. Some rifles such as the Mausers have a positive extraction from the magazine so the extractor would hold the shell with the against the breech face until detonation. I know that I would not want to be around when someone did this, but it is possible, and there have also been reports of someone doing the same with a .270 ; I believe Massad commented on it. Very dangerous practice!!!!



    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob108.html

    Please read, very interesting and informative... near the end of article.
    Last edited by mauser1959; February 11th, 2010 at 06:04 PM. Reason: add link

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cvhoss View Post
    Not that I disagree, but I don't believe the person in the OP was a Wal Mart employee but rather another customer

    who was trying to learn something.

    I would hope that, regardless of several of the stories related in this thread, most of us are more tolerant in helping out new shooters than the reactions here would tend to indicate. I try to be very tolerant and supportive of someone just getting into shooting. I'm less tolerant of someone already into shooting who is now wanting to jump into something like reloading without being willing to take the steps to learn how to do it safely. But someone totally new to firearms and shooting has to start somewhere and I usually try my best to make sure that they find it enjoyable and not try and embarrass them out of the sport.

    And let's face it, calibers can be confusing. My friend who does a lot of his shooting at a public range close to his house recently observed an individual shooting his new Hi Point 9mm. My friend asked the guy how he was doing and he complained that he was having difficulty with feeding and extraction. My friend went over to see if he could help and discovered that the guy had fired about a hundred rounds of Prvi Partizan 380 ACP ammo out of his 9mm. Why? Take a look at the Prvi Partizan box and what does it say right under 380 Auto? 9mm Short!!

    And caliber confusion isn't something new. Take a look at the old BP cartridges.
    44-40 A 44 cal. bullet over 40 grains of black powder
    32-20 A 32 cal. bullet over 20 grains of black powder
    45-70 A 45 cal. bullet over 70 grains of black powder
    And then along comes the 38-40. A 38 cal. bullet over 40 grains of black powder, right? Wrong. It's a 40 cal. bullet over 38 grains of black powder.

    The only thing I ask of those of us who have some knowledge of firearms is that when you run into someone new to firearms is to try and help them without making them feel 2" tall for being so stupid. The more people we can bring safely into the shooting sports, the better off we'll be. And remember, everyone has to start somewhere.

    Hoss
    Hoss,

    Thank you for taking the time to write the message you sent. It totally conveys my sentiments and I could not post a better message.

    It seems that there are at least two camps on this forum, experienced and unexperienced. It should not be an unpleasant experience on this forum to ask a question from an experienced shooter.

    I remember once while my wife and I were shooting at an indoor range. She ws in the next booth and came to me and said " the gun is jambed and won't fire"
    She was shooting one of my 9mm pistols. I unloaded the gun and discovered that she had loaded .380. It kind of looks the same but won't fire and jambs.
    She had just taken a box out of my ammo bag without looking or knowing the difference.

    We fixed the problem and she was on her way again.

    There was no shame blame or guilt. Just understanding that she did not understand.

    Later I showed her the two different boxes and that even though 380looks similar to 9mm Luger, it is not the same.

    Now I put the boxes of ammo on the shooting shelf for her before she loads so there is no mistake.

    Some shooters, new and old, need a little help from time to time, so why not try help them if you can.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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  6. #35
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    I'm sorry but... seriously, what woman would "want" a WWII British .303?
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cvhoss View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me what will actually fire in what. My friend that I referenced in my post above actually did that not too long ago. He had inadvertently put a 40 S&W into a box of 45s. The round fired but the case sure wasn't pretty. Even though the extractor held the round against the breech face, I would have thought that being smaller in diameter plus the 40 having a small primer that it would have been too far off-center for a firing pin hit. Guess not.

    Hoss
    Interesting. I spent an hour earlier today trying to get a .40S&W NOT to just fall through the chamber when fed from the magazine. Never could get it to happen.

    I guess I'm not clutzy enough.
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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by showmebob View Post
    I've seen 40's fired in a 45 at our range also. Same results as posted above. If I get time I'll take a pic and post it.
    Please do. See my previous post.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    Interesting. I spent an hour earlier today trying to get a .40S&W NOT to just fall through the chamber when fed from the magazine. Never could get it to happen.

    I guess I'm not clutzy enough.
    If someone were to have asked me before, I would have bet money that's exactly what would happen. When my friend told me about it, I was disbelieving right up to the time he showed me the case. Imagine a 45 ACP with a rebated rim. Wish I had held onto the case.

    Hoss
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cvhoss View Post
    If someone were to have asked me before, I would have bet money that's exactly what would happen. When my friend told me about it, I was disbelieving right up to the time he showed me the case. Imagine a 45 ACP with a rebated rim. Wish I had held onto the case.

    Hoss
    Well, I guess I need to become a believer. I am NOT going to try it to satisfy my own doubts, though.

    Thanks.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    The title says it all.
    yup
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  12. #41
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    While we're on the topic, I've had this question for awhile. (I'd never try it, but I am curious.) Can a .308 round be fired in a .308 WIN chamber?

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExHippie View Post
    While we're on the topic, I've had this question for awhile. (I'd never try it, but I am curious.) Can a .308 round be fired in a .308 WIN chamber?
    Technically, there is no caliber named just ".308". What most people are referring to when they say 308 is .308 Winchester. There is also a .308 Marlin Express and a .308 Norma Magnum but these are different chamberings.

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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    What makes you think they were shot in a .45? That is virtually impossibility.

    A .40S&W round will slide all the way through the chamber and out the barrel (with room to spare) of a .45 ACP without stopping. Even if it did hang on the edge of the chamber and actually be fired (very doubtful), it's likely the case would rupture and blow the magazine out of the gun, as well as injure the shooter's hand. It's highly unlikely the shooter and gun would be in any condition to fire a second round.
    Not impossible - I've seen it happen with the shooter next to me in a Pat Rogers training course. It happened during a transition drill when the shooter experienced a malfunction with his 1911. When we looked inside the barrel there was a .40 S&W case lodged in the chamber. The shooter apparently had a .40 with him among his .45 ammo and loaded that into his .45 mag. Looks like the case was captured by thr extractor and held at the "correct" depth in the chamber. Fortunately the .40 case expanded tightly inside the barrel and prevented the next .45 round from chambering. No blowups, no kB, it just tied the gun up. YMMV.

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  15. #44
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    I'm not sure about the 'dangerous' part.

    What do people in this thread mean by 'dangerous'?

    A .40 S&W cartridge fired in a .45 ACP chamber (held by the extractor) does not develop full pressure. As soon as the case splits and the bullet leaves the case, pressure pretty much evens out and dissipates. Yes, a .40 S&W develops chamber pressure of more or less 35,000 CUP but only when fully supported and channeled.

    The gas is hot and might give a first degree burn, but it's not going to be enough to blow up the gun. It will blow crud (partially burn powder) down the barrel, but that's about all.

    A similar condition exists with the .308 Winchester/.30-06 interchange. By the way, the .30-06 is 63mm long and the 7.62x51 NATO is 51mm long; a difference of 12 mm; however, what Mauser 1959 posited is essentially correct. The extractor will hold the shorter round in place very well and it will fire.
    Because the longer chamber allows the case to expand radically, the pressure is lessened. The bullet of the 7.62 round will nicely line up in the throat when chambered, so the bullet will enter the barrel and fill out the rifling. I've never chronographed such an event, but I'm sure there's velocity loss.

    Is that dangerous? Not in terms of blowing up the weapon. The case is pretty well ruined, but the walls and rear of the case do seal off the rear of the chamber, so gas leakage shouldn't be a problem. The pressure is reduced by the volume factor.

    The only possible danger is if the case is just far forward enough in the chamber to slam into the firing pin and puncture the primer. That could send hot gas back through the bolt body, possibly into the shooter's face.

    Not what I see as 'recommended practice' by any means, but not what I would term as 'tom fool dangerous', either.

    I've seen several 9x19 rounds fired in .40 S&W chambers. Case is ruined, accuracy all over the place and the shooter mystified at the really, really bad functioning. No blowups, no gas leaks, nothing of what I would classify as 'danger'.

    .380 ACP in a 9x19 chamber; essentially same results; marginally better accuracy. The cases can usually be salvaged, if anyone cares.

    A 'wrong' cartridge is dangerous in terms of catastrophic failure only when the cartridge fits well enough to be seriously confined in the chamber. The 'right' cartridge in a slightly open chamber will generally blow out the web of the case with catastrophic results. (I've seen that happen, too.)

    The question of .308 Win in a .303 Brit chamber is interesting. The .303B is longer to the shoulder and longer over all. The head of the .308W case is smaller in diameter and may or may not catch on the extractor. Since the .308 bullet is only about .003" smaller in diameter, the bullet could very well obdurate to bore diameter. However, as with the .30-06 chamber, the .308W case will expand out and drop some pressure in that process. In any event, the .303B SMLE has been rechambered to .308W without terrible results.

    Again, not anything I'd recommend, but I doubt it disastrous.

    I would also re-emphasize the words of Hoss and SIG. Shooters who simply don't know better need information and education, not laughter. I know what I know from over forty years of doing this. When I started, I thought the 'German Luger was the most powerful gun in the world'. Someone gently taught me better.
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  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauser1959 View Post
    Just as aside, a 308 should be able to be fired in a 30/06 rifle... there is only 3mm difference in case length. That is not to say it would be safe, but possible. Some rifles such as the Mausers have a positive extraction from the magazine so the extractor would hold the shell with the against the breech face until detonation. I know that I would not want to be around when someone did this, but it is possible, and there have also been reports of someone doing the same with a .270 ; I believe Massad commented on it. Very dangerous practice!!!!



    Thoughts on ammunition by Massad Ayoob Issue #108

    Please read, very interesting and informative... near the end of article.
    maybe so but the guy said he had a semi auto rifle. It may not have a positive extractor.

    The 270 will chamber and can be fired from a 30-06 but a 30-06 will not chamber in a 270 (I tried cause I was curious). Even if it did I wouldn't try firing it.
    Since calibers come from parent cartriges some rounds would chamber in the incorrect gun. Its not safe unless you reload and know what you are doing it gives reloaders options like...

    A 308 can be necked down to a .243
    a 30-06 can be necked down to .270
    a 30-06, 308 or 270 can be cut and resized into .44 automag
    a .223 can be necked up to a 300 whisper
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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