85% of people shot, survive

[DefConGun]

On a "Personal Defense TV" segment I watched last week, Clint Smith (of Thunder Ranch) said that 85% of people that are shot, survive.

We often hear a lot of talk about ballistics, caliber size as well as the importance of shot placement when discussing the effectiveness of calibers/guns. Whenever we hear about the use of a firearm in the media, it usually has a fatal ending. It seems that guns have more than a 15% likelihood of killing you, if shot by one, if you pay attention to the media accordingly. I wouldn't encourage people to be careless with firearms given the low fatality rate that they seem to be responsible for, etc. At the same time, however, I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed in the effectiveness that guns overall reportedly have when it comes to their ability to fatally end a threat. Some may say that a gun does not have to kill in order to save you from a threat. As long as it puts an end to imminent danger then it has done its job. Even if a gun does kill, it may not kill fast enough to save you from imminent danger. I remember reading an account from the altercation involving a shootout between the FBI and bank robbers in Florida (back in the 80s I think?). One of the agents said that the agent's shots were hitting their target. The problem was that the BGs didn't die fast enough. From the time they were hit and the time it took them to die, they were able to shoot and injure/kill FBI agents.

I'm really not going anywhere with this post other than stating that I'm surprised at the low fatality rate that guns have in actuality as opposed to their perceived threat.

Shot placement is vital in order to effectively put an end to an imminent threat. I suspect that the low fatality rate for guns is due to a lack of training in the overal populace that uses them. I'm sure a certain percentage of shots that are reported in said statistic are in reference to accidental shots that weren't intended to be fatal wounds. In this case, there was no real intent to fatally wound someone and resulted in a non-fatal wound.

Any thoughts or ideas about the subject overall?
DCG

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[claude clay]

Any thoughts or ideas about the subject overall?

well, simply.....people shoot about as well as they drive--all over the place.

which is good for the targeted, not so good for the image i have of people's capabilities with a hand gun.
carrying a gun should not be a 'learn as you carry' proposition.
i am in no way advocating for any level of govt involvement
i am aiming toward personal responsibility--people need to have the skills of a
accomplished gunhandler before they take it with them out into the world.
this can be done in as little as 6 months and before it is possibly needed.

[Cattus Vir]

I would be curious as to what percentage of GSW are gang related. I can only imagine those hard core, insert sarcastic eye roll here, would be the cause of the lower mortality rate. Maybe I should be thankful those guys don't practice.

[Nathanimal]

How many of these shootings were intentional?

If they figured in accidental shootings this would probably have skewed the statistic to make guns look less deadly.

[dukalmighty]

85% may survive,but I will bet a large percentage are permanently handicapped from the Injuries,everything from spinal cord injuries to damages to arms/legs causing mobility issues,to internal damage needing colostomy bags,some head wounds may be survivable,but leaves the person in a vegetative state.Some bullet wounds are thru and thru soft tissue causing no damage to any muscles nerves or ligaments

[RockBottom]

One thing that people tend to overlook is the dramatic improvement that has been made in emergency medical care. A shot that might have been fatal only a few years ago is now survivable.

[pollardjd]

That Miami gunfight you refer to, where the FBI agent got killed after shooting the bad guys, is what led to the FBI's conclusion that is was an ammunition failure rather than a weapons or training failure, and this led to the ammunition tests that led to the 10mm Lite / .40 S&W cartridge. In that gunfight, the agent did his job, the handgun did its job, but the 9mm ammunition did not do its job...

[gschoelles]

Need to be clear that he was talking about being shot by a handgun! I guarantee you that being shot by any hyper velocity rifle would make anyday a very bad one...

[ssmtbracer]

I had a guy in the shop a few weeks back getting new tires on his wheel chair. He was shot 10 time with .45 just sitting in his car he said. Of course I don't know the whole story on why he was shot but it could have been random since where he was shot was not a very good area of town. But he said he is working on walking again.

[MitchellCT]

I see people as clients who most members here would probably be robbed or assaulted by.

Sometimes, when they tell me their history, it involves GSW and knife wounds.

One was a headshot by a 10mm & 3 9mm to the body - he lived. Another was a .38spcl to the face and .40S&W to the legs. He also survived and ran away.

People are hard to kill. Especially with the pithy, insignificant little guns people carry like 9mm and 45ACP.

Just because you get shot, doesn't mean you can't kill your assailent, render immediate care and survive. You can, because if a 125 pound skinny kid (who was minding his own biznez...) can get shot 5 times and survive with really cool scars, you can to.

On the other hand...if you want to be effective with your pithy little handgun with an insignificant bullet like 357 magnum, 9mm +p or 45ACP - Shoot people in the Brain, Heart or Spine.

Be deliberate & surgical with placement.

Or accept FAIL

[WHEC724]

Good observations, MitchellCT. I had thought it was because the other 15% were shot by 45ACP. j/k.

[glockman10mm]

That Miami gunfight you refer to, where the FBI agent got killed after shooting the bad guys, is what led to the FBI's conclusion that is was an ammunition failure rather than a weapons or training failure, and this led to the ammunition tests that led to the 10mm Lite / .40 S&W cartridge. In that gunfight, the agent did his job, the handgun did its job, but the 9mm ammunition did not do its job...

The statement that the 9mm did not do it's job is not true. It absolutely performed as designed, and this is more inet myth that refuses to go away.

The 85% survival rate is probably due to several factors already mentioned, none the least of which is a high percentage of those numbers is probably thug vs thug .

In any event, let's consider how many of those shot were "stopped", as that is the main purpose of the defensive handgun. Anything else is just incidental to the shooting.

[limatunes]

Does it REALLY surprise people that the human body can survive a few small holes poked into it?

Relative to the rest of the body even a .45 is a small hole and we have a LOT of protective engineering to ensure against dying from such small holes. Our brain, heart, lungs, etc are very well protected by bone. Muscles and fat protect other vital organs.

But, that doesn't mean we are invincible to GSWs. Permanent damage or even long-term pain and rehab to recover are all very real consequences of being shot. While something is survivable it doesn't make it "okay" to go through.

After watching my brother in agonizing pain for weeks healing from his gun shot wound I am more than happy to try to avoid them at all costs.

I will not, however, think my life is over if I do get shot because I know if I'm aware enough to know I've gotten shot I'll probably be aware enough to fight back and possibly even make it until medical help arrives.

[Blue Thunder]

My goal is to improve that percentage If I am engaged from a hostile person. Let them die for their country rather than me. Sounds like General Patton in WWII. I have recently done the "Fence" to a street urchin in downtown Atlanta just outside the Hard Rock Cafe. He walked across the street to me to Interrupt me and go somewhere, I put up the "Fence" (both hands palms to him and said "I don't have the time" while he was saying "Excuse me sir"). I had already spotted him across the street while leaving the HRC and doing my 360 degree scan of "What is going on out here". He just bolted back across then street waiting for the next victim. Yes I was CCW carrying and never went to Red, but did go to yellow. Good training will get you to this level of avoidance! Why fight/confront when you don't have to? Me i am not getting to a fight or on the ground where things can get really out of control. I will have control of my presence at all time in public or private and take the needed resources to insure that.

[shockwave]

MitchellCT: You keep using the word "pithy." I do not think that word means what you think it means.

To the OP: Firearms are weapons. Just like knives, fists, or any other combative implement. It is only confusion that has led to some people believing that gunshots - of whatever caliber - result in instant incapacitation.

Instead, it's probably better to rely on the fact that most people prefer to not have bullets enter their bodies at any time.