"Handgun Stopping Power"

This is a discussion on "Handgun Stopping Power" within the Defensive Books, Video & References forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know this debate has come up over and over again, but I recommend this a good source of information when trying to pick good ...

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Thread: "Handgun Stopping Power"

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    "Handgun Stopping Power"

    I know this debate has come up over and over again, but I recommend this a good source of information when trying to pick good defense ammuntion. It is by no means the Bible on Stopping power but it does present some interesting points in it. I know alot of people hate this book but as the author says there is no magic bullet or caliber, but there are better choices than others. I even if you don't read it review the tables in the book about the differn't calibers.

    Criteria Author uses for comparing bullet data.

    1.) Only torso shots were used in the study.
    2.) Multiple hits where discarded. Was trying to judge individual bullet performance.
    3.) A stop defined as follows: if the victim was assaulting someone, he collapsed without being able to fire another shot or strike another blow. If he was fleeing, he collapsed within 10 feet
    4) In order to include a shooting in the study, he had to have been able to review some of the following: Police reports, evidence technician reports, statements by the victim (if he survived) homicide reports, autopsy results, and photos, and talked to the ER Drs.
    5 Recovered bullets were either personally examined or photographed by me, or he was provided with photos of the bullets.
    6.) A minimum of five shootings were required before a handgun load was included in the study.

    Authored: Evan p. Marshall Edwin J. Sanow. Forwarded by John S. Farnam.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    IMHO there are no definitave answers to the stopping power questions , neither the jello junkies nor the mourge monsters have any better clue than the opinions you see on the internet gunboards.
    Service cal handgun rounds will usualy discorage felons when applyed multiple times . That is why they are used by police and the mil . Other than that reassuring thought all else is pretty much a crapshoot , but instead of hoping for snakeyes for the felon you hope for COM . Practice and placement is the key to success not some " magic projectile " .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    I have little regard for any stopping power discussion or study that fails to adequately address head shots.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    The point of this was not to Claim a Magical Bullet. It was to say that there are better options than others based on street actuals in a small sample set. If you read the book its not myth based jargon, innuendos, or "Sea Stories". What the book does do and does state is it establishes a baseline for individuals to do their own tests based on their own abilities. I am a total believer in shot placement over bullet performance, caliber, allegeric reactions caused in wherewolves or whatever. I do believe there are better options then others but this is loosely based on individual needs, uses, and capablities.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  6. #5
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    Marshall and Sanow has become a contraversial publication - and it has been picked to pieces countless times. As with many works on the subject - it seems for each individual - take from it what you will.

    The debate however on ''stopping power'' rages ever on

    The whole deal can be discussed and argued ad infinitum and yet I doubt anyone will ever accept one source as definitive - so much is down to opinion, just as with ''caliber wars''!

    Just make sure that you (meaning the collective ''you'' - as in ''us'') - carry a gun with which you are initimately familiar, practice and train with and so ensure a high possibility - even probability, that if you have to put shots where they matter, it can be done. Two or three well placed .22's even, could well score over one hit only from a hand cannon.

    Much of the rest regarding results is down to type of perp' ...... drugged or not drugged, fat, thin, fearful, fearless, aggression quotient, clothing ..... long list of variables really.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Hummmmm......Thats unfortunate. I have never heard of any school teaching right out the gate Head shots as a means of self defense. I mean if your Rob Leatham or Dave Sevigny I might buy the opinion of head shots based on their talent. If your carrying a gun out in public on the street please let me know I really don't want to be anywhere near you. Unless you can hit the head repeately drawing from concealment at 50 feet over and over again without a single miss and you do it every day when you practice. You could be a danger to the people around you. I aim to stop, shooting at the most exposed vital area which is center of mass. In extreme cases you might have to conduct a failure drill, but by that point nothing you have done has taken affect, and your about to get clubed to death. The head is not included due to very regular results of hitting the cranial vault. I said regular not guareented.

    As far as I stated before it is not the "Bible nor does it claim to be" it is simply a good resource. As with anything I buy or get into, I try and get as educated on the topic as I can. When it comes to carrying a gun for SD. The meaning of this to me is I may have to use it, I'm seeking information from people in the past that have done some sort of research on the topic. Once you have looked passed the accuracy and built up a firm strong skill of being able to hit what you are shooting at I would like to know whats my best alternative as far as reliability in all aspects. Does the object in question have a high probability of not doing what it was intended to do. The topic being bullets when they enter the human body. I don't know of any other study similar in this area where the study involved real actual events when pertaining to this topic. If there is please educate me. Its seems that most people on this forum agree with this area in some fashion JHP over FMJ. Everybody alwas states JHP hands down. Why? Its a better alternative than the FMJ for purpose asked. The ability to have it (projectile) to due what you want to do is greater with a JHP than a FMJ if accuracy being equal.

    In a perfect world we can answer this question, but we do not live in a perfect world. We only have our ability to try and find the best alternative for what our needs are as stated above.


    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    I have little regard for any stopping power discussion or study that fails to adequately address head shots.
    Last edited by Rob99VMI04; December 24th, 2006 at 04:49 PM.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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    Member Array newmexiglock's Avatar
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    LowFlyer,

    Doctors don't kill people, they merely pronounce them dead. Everyone knows it is the cessation of oxidative phosphorylation that that kills people.

    NMG

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    VIP Member Array frankmako's Avatar
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    i have little regard for any stopping power discussion or study. i have seen a "bg" get shot over 30 times and he did not die/go down. so to me carry a gun that you can shoot and carry were nobody can see it. on the job i have seen 44mag/45 acp not do the job. also, i have seen a 22lr kill with one shot. so sometime i think it does not matter what you carry as long as you carry something.
    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

    Red State State of Mind

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Rob99VMI04 dont be confused , maby i wasnt clear. IMO Evan is one of the most honerable men to walk the face of the earth, and an asset to the gun culture . I dont think howeaver he has stopping power dialed in any more than anyone else , nor as far as i know he profess to . He just does his best to collect data from shootings , orginise it , and then pass on what fits his criteria. IMHO the criteria is flawed . Enough said on it by me , I won't go any further as i dont want to be percieved as slamming a fine man, nor can i totaly buy into his methods ( or anyone elses that i have seen so far for that matter )
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmexiglock View Post
    LowFlyer,

    Doctors don't kill people, they merely pronounce them dead. Everyone knows it is the cessation of oxidative phosphorylation that that kills people.

    NMG
    Yeah, I know. It's the punchline to a joke regarding gun violence statistics and numbers of malpractice suits.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Hummmmm......Thats unfortunate. I have never heard of any school teaching right out the gate Head shots as a means of self defense. I mean if your Rob Leatham or Dave Sevigny I might buy the opinion of head shots based on their talent. If your carrying a gun out in public on the street please let me know I really don't want to be anywhere near you. Unless you can hit the head repeately drawing from concealment at 50 feet over and over again without a single miss and you do it every day when you practice. You could be a danger to the people around you. I aim to stop, shooting at the most exposed vital area which is center of mass. In extreme cases you might have to conduct a failure drill, but by that point nothing you have done has taken affect, and your about to get clubed to death. The head is not included due to very regular results of hitting the cranial vault. I said regular not guareented.

    As far as I stated before it is not the "Bible nor does it claim to be" it is simply a good resource. As with anything I buy or get into, I try and get as educated on the topic as I can. When it comes to carrying a gun for SD. The meaning of this to me is I may have to use it, I'm seeking information from people in the past that have done some sort of research on the topic. Once you have looked passed the accuracy and built up a firm strong skill of being able to hit what you are shooting at I would like to know whats my best alternative as far as reliability in all aspects. Does the object in question have a high probability of not doing what it was intended to do. The topic being bullets when they enter the human body. I don't know of any other study similar in this area where the study involved real actual events when pertaining to this topic. If there is please educate me. Its seems that most people on this forum agree with this area in some fashion JHP over FMJ. Everybody alwas states JHP hands down. Why? Its a better alternative than the FMJ for purpose asked. The ability to have it (projectile) to due what you want to do is greater with a JHP than a FMJ if accuracy being equal.

    In a perfect world we can answer this question, but we do not live in a perfect world. We only have our ability to try and find the best alternative for what our needs are as stated above.
    Dude, that was a bit of irony (a.k.a. a joke) - hence the smiley emoticon.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I think the bullet we are all looking for is one that provides the most knockdown power and will not pass through .my main concern would be to injure an innocent by stander. I belive shot placement to be the most important thing . this means the more practice the better. If you can put more then one round in the BG.with out hittingan innocent bystander should be your goal and this takes practice.

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