February 22nd, 2005 07:49 PM
Book Review: In The Gravest Extreme
5 My Highest Rating.
In The Gravest Extreme
By Massad F. Ayoob
This is one everyone should have on there shelf.
Very enlighting in some spots. Good info on when to walk away vs fight it out and some myths on shootings.
Covers when you can use lethal force,Disparity of force i.e a 60 year 130 pound old man against a 19 year old 200 pound man. Equal Force
And the Reasonableness of your response. bare fear vs reasonable Fear the im just plain scared of the stree punks vs the taunt of im going to kill you.
Escalation of force and what it means for you .
Goes into the Dangerous Myth of citizens arrest and what a bunch of trouble you can mange to get your self into.
Some good info on women and gus and when to use a gun in your store as a store owner.
The gun in your home and what kinds of steps and plans you should make up if you home is invaded..
Heres something that really surprised me "If you ascertained that the man you have the drop on is a deliberate intruder into your occupied home (and therefore by definition a deranged or vicious enemy) if you are certain that he has a weapon in or at hand; if you and he are in positions where he can shoot or stab you ----
Shoot him. In the back if you have to. And keep shooting him untill he is unable to shoot back"
Wow this one will get a whole other post to discuss that statment.
Also talks about buying off you assaliants in the street by tossing a match book with a 5 or 10in'er in it and tell um to buy a round on me hopeing that will be enough and if not and it turns into a gunfight .. It will look good for you becuse you tried to even buy your way out of the fight.
Theres a lot of good stuff in this book and more statments of the dont challenge just him him kind..
Also a section on gun choice its out of date since most the guns arent made anymore and alss this is a spot where the 45 meaning 1911 in this book is for a expert only i dont agree but each there own opinions.
Only cons some info outdate like gunselection the 45 must be a expert thing is off base i think.
All and all a must buy at only about 10 bucks ya cant lose.
February 22nd, 2005 11:41 PM
looks like I need to make another amazon.com order huh. Thanks for the review Bud.
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live!!!
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
The worst thing in this world, next to anarchy, is government.
Henry Ward Beecher
February 23rd, 2005 09:42 AM
The phrases "Must Have" and Must See" are so overused that they are almost meaningless. Having said that, this book really IS a "Must Have" for the responsible gun owner. I agree that some parts are a bit dated, but the overall information is essential for anyone who contemplates the unpleasant possibility that he may one day have to defend himself from a lethal threat.
If you don't have it, buy or borrow a copy and read it.
February 23rd, 2005 11:57 AM
First read IGE more than 20 years ago, try to read it once a year, as a refresher. Taught from IGE for more than 20 years.
Know him as a trainer for almost 20 years, as a friend for 16. There are several people in the training field that I would love to have on my 6 in a critical situation, Ayoob is one.
February 24th, 2005 10:43 AM
I don't agree with everything Ayoob has written, but agree this book is well worth reading. Good insights and thoughts; just apply the "common sense" yardstick, as always!
February 24th, 2005 11:52 AM
Here in the state of Misery (Missouri) some of this advice will get you prison time, if you catch someone violently breaking into you r house you can shoot; once inside they can help themselves to a beer out of the frig, make a sandwich, sit down and watch TV etc. Unless they make an overtly hostile/threatening move you can not shoot, a shot to the back would be very hard to explain and would almost guarantee prison time here.
February 24th, 2005 05:19 PM
Many authors in this field don't pay any attention to the legal ramifications of use-of-force. Ayoob is one of the few that do. He generally seems to fall on one end of the spectrum of those who do. That is, he advises to use as little force as is minimally necessary to resolve the issue. Others teach to use as much force as is maximally allowable or justifiable. Most readers will eventually fall somewhere between the two camps.
In the Gravest Extreme is a good book and you should read it. Be aware that its legal advice is general and may not align detail-by-detail to your jurisdiction. Also be aware that while liability is a real concern, we must not allow liability to cloud our single-minded determination to survive the event.
Some of the book's critics say that the book doesn't distinguish between conceivable and potential legal pitfalls and probable or likely outcomes. That is, the book may warn that you might incur some liability if you do X, Y, or Z but never point out that there's no case history of anyone being held liable for doing those things. Or that the only person who ever was held liable for doing those things also may have been a person who associated with criminals, identified with a group of known or suspected criminals and who lead a high-risk lifestyle.
I've owned three or four copies of In the Gravest Extreme and need to replace it in my current library. I recommend it and will gladly share it with people who I care about but now, I wouldn't provide a copy of this book without also providing Gabe Suarez's The Combative Perspective and Jeff Cooper's Principles Of Personal Defense.
When it's time to stomp cockroaches, you don't want to be wearing your fuzzy bunny slippers.
February 26th, 2005 09:59 PM
Stupid Lawyer Tricks
I did get some useful observations about the nature of legal proceedings and the mindset of antigun prosecutors and a gentle reminder that the cops aren't necessarily your friends in the aftermath of a civilian self defense shooting.
Originally Posted by Pyrolyzer
I also enjoyed some of Ayoob's "Stupid Lawyer" tricks and the counter arguments that can effectivey neutralize them. My favorite: Somebody gets your deposition or you're on the stand and you get asked if you "regret your actions." Now, of course anybody is going to "regret" having killed somebody and even if you don't you're probably going to say that you do so as not to look bad in front of a bunch of jurors who lack your survival mindset! But in the context of a courtroom, "regret" seems to suggest GUILT.
The proper response would go something like this: "Regret? NO, I don't regret shooting the perpetrator. I GRIEVE for him and for his family. I GRIEVE for what HIS actions FORCED ME TO DO!" yada yada yada. Ayoob has several o9ther situations and advice. At least this gives you a heads up for what lines of questioning to be aware of that may pose a trap for the unsuspecting.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
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