Largest caliber legaly justified for defense - Page 4

Largest caliber legaly justified for defense

This is a discussion on Largest caliber legaly justified for defense within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here is some info I found on it..... Here is the Quote that shocked me......... Trail of evidence - Trail of Evidence- msnbc.com And the ...

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Thread: Largest caliber legaly justified for defense

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array tankdriver's Avatar
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    Here is some info I found on it.....

    Here is the Quote that shocked me.........

    Trail of evidence - Trail of Evidence- msnbc.com


    And the jury had another issue to think about: Fish’s gun.

    The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

    When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.





    Harold Fish Defense


    Here are many of the roles/personalities in this case:

    The defendant / shooter: Harold Fish. A retired school teacher. Father of seven children.

    The assailant / decedent: Grant Kuenzli

    The Prosecutor: Mike Lessler, Coconino County

    The Judge: Mark Moran, Arizona Superior Court, Coconino County

    Harold Fish was hiking in Coconino County when a man with a violent history and his two dogs attacked him. Mr. Fish fired a warning shot at the dogs to keep them from attacking him. Grant Kuenzli then attacked Mr. Fish while yelling death threats. Mr. Fish was forced to fire at Kuenzli, killing him at point blank range. What Mr. Fish did not know, and could not know, was the violent history of Grant Kuenzli. A history, among many other facts of the case, that the judge and prosecutor would not allow in court for the jury to consider.

    Since the attack on Harold Fish took place, but before the trial, the Arizona Legislature returned the law from "guilty until proven innocent", back to "innocent until proven guilty" in self defense cases.

    Among the myriad of "mistakes" made by the judge and prosecutor (and our fine education system), the judge would not allow the trial to take place under the corrected law, nor did he educate the jury members on Jury Nullification, a concept that our judicial system is founded upon which addresses the rights and responsibilities of jury members as the final check and balance on government as they vote with their conscience, in this case, that they are under no obligation to find a man guilty of an unjust law.


    Good out come

    http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/20...d_fish_con.php


    Harold Fish conviction reversed
    Posted by David Hardy 4 July 2009 08:16 PM
    Pdf of AZ Ct of Appeals ruling here. To shave a long opinion to its core--

    Fish was hiking, saw another guy, waved, other guy's dogs charged him, he fired a warning shot. Then the other guy charged him, crazed look in eyes, windmilling arms and shouting threats. Fish shouted to halt and, that having no effect, shot him fatally.

    Major issue on appeal: trial court refused to allow testimony from several other people that other guy, upon confrontation relating to his dogs, had rushed at them, crazed look in eyes, arms windmilling and shouting threats.

    Ruling: general rule is that self defense must be based on reasonable fear, and reasonable fear cannot be based upon something the defender doesn't know (in this case, that the guy tended to go off balance with regard his dogs and behaving in a threatening way). Arizona case had allowed court to admit unknown events, in its discretion, but adoption of the federal rules of evidence (which have no such provision) as the state rules ended that. HOWEVER, the prosecution, by arguing that Fish's claim that other guy behaved so crazily was ridiculous, opened the door to Fish bringing in evidence that that was, in fact, how the guy had behaved in the past. Conviction reversed and sent back for new trial.

    Also Law changed.....
    1942 M3 Autocar Half-track...M3A1 Diamond T Half-track...57mm Anti-Tank Cannon

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  2. #47
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    That is a good piece of info to consider, no matter what side of the caliber fence you are on. Thanks for sharing a great piece of work

  3. #48
    Member Array jsunsr's Avatar
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    Get serious. I don't know if any firearm will knock a man off his feet if he's hit in the hand. Certainly if you blow his hand off with a shotgun that might turn his attention.

    My point is that if you over do it you are setting yourself up for legal problems. That's why many banks no longer arm their security guards. The costs of civil law suits far outweigh the money they lose to robbers.

    I'm certainly not saying don't do what is necessary to defend you and yours. However, if the only thing you carry is a canon then that's what you have to use. If it goes thru your attacker and kills three other people, your in deep. Regardless of the circumstances. You have a right to defend yourself from bad guys, you don't have a right to hurt other innocent people in the process.

    A guy here in Illinois was shooting at a trash can in his back yard with a 44 magnum. He killed someone almost a mile away. I don't remember the specifics but this much I do. He went to jail.

    There is a definite spot at which my rights end and others rights begin. I have to be cognizant of where that line is and never cross it, if I want to be righteous and free.

    I know there are some guys on this site who could care less for others rights and you and I will never see eye to eye. I believe the Bill of Rights was written for responsible citizens. Criminal Law was written for irresponsible citizens. Regardless we are both covered by the law.

  4. #49
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    Unless your state has some restriction on handgun cartridge size, I wouldn't worry about it. Other than that, there's not legality to it.

    Unless you're filling your hollow points with mercury! That could be an issue.

    "I am sure there was more to it than just the caliber in question. The idea that a 10mm is not carried by police is ridiculous. Here in KY, we carried a 10mm for years, so I am sure there were other circumstances involved other than caliber."

    The .41 Mag was a standard round for LE for a long time, and some carried the .44 Mag. The problem wasn't a legal issue, it was controlability. Most couldn't rapid fire either with any measure of accuracy. Likewise, the ultimate reason the FBI rejected the 10mm. That's the reason so many PDs opted for the 9mm--controlibility.

    The .40 S&W is the most common round in LE today because of power, capacity, and controlibility.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsunsr View Post
    Get serious. I don't know if any firearm will knock a man off his feet if he's hit in the hand. Certainly if you blow his hand off with a shotgun that might turn his attention.

    My point is that if you over do it you are setting yourself up for legal problems. That's why many banks no longer arm their security guards. The costs of civil law suits far outweigh the money they lose to robbers.

    I'm certainly not saying don't do what is necessary to defend you and yours. However, if the only thing you carry is a canon then that's what you have to use. If it goes thru your attacker and kills three other people, your in deep. Regardless of the circumstances. You have a right to defend yourself from bad guys, you don't have a right to hurt other innocent people in the process.

    A guy here in Illinois was shooting at a trash can in his back yard with a 44 magnum. He killed someone almost a mile away. I don't remember the specifics but this much I do. He went to jail.

    There is a definite spot at which my rights end and others rights begin. I have to be cognizant of where that line is and never cross it, if I want to be righteous and free.

    I know there are some guys on this site who could care less for others rights and you and I will never see eye to eye. I believe the Bill of Rights was written for responsible citizens. Criminal Law was written for irresponsible citizens. Regardless we are both covered by the law.
    Your argument is full of holes.

    Let me point out where in the bolded comments.

    1) If someone is in the act of a forced felony (armed robbery, rape, attempted murder, assault) Then in most states you ARE justified in your shoot and cannot have ANY civial action brought against you. Now I don't live in Illinois and quite frankly I thank God every day that I am not in a state where my rights are infringed by those who prey on the fear of the ignorant to enable legislation to hinder the reach of the constitution.

    2) The guy shooting at a trash can even with a .22 committed a crime anyway. I do not feel sorry for him at all.


    Also I remember that trial for the 10mm. The problem was the location of the shoot, NOT the caliber. The Caliber in question was brought up to hit the little old ladies selected for the jury and label the guy as a killer. The location of the incident was in a public park, at the time this was off limits for concealed carry if my memory serves. The question was what Fish intended to do when he decided to carry a concealed weapon to a park.

    However, be damned sure of this fact. If I am forced to draw my weapon on someone I am in full awareness of what I'm going to do to the bad guy. He brought it upon himself and I am fully within my rights to defend myself using lethal force (otherwise I would not have drawn my weapon at all), and I have full intent to inflict great bodily harm or death upon him.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Actually the 41 was loaded to magnum velocities for police depts, and that is what hurt it. It was supposed to be loaded to velocities of 900-1000 fps as initially recommended by its proponets. The reduced load was not produced in quanity, and most who carried it were stuck with the magnum loadings, which along with it being chambered in an N-frame which weighed much more than the popular k frames spelled its demise. The FBI did not abandon the 10mm due to it being to powerful, rather it was only offered on the big frame autoloaders of the day, the CZ and the 1911. Their were production problems with the BREN TEN and the 1911 platform was not able to withstand the battering the frames took from the 10mm. Once again the load the experts of the day deemed most effect was a 40 caliber bullet in the 180-200 grain range at a velocity of ......you guessed it..900-1000 fps, which is what the 41 mag law enforcement round was supposed to be. As a point of interest, a round of almost identical ballistics was developed over 100 years ago that met the FBI reqiurements of today almost exactly...the 38-40. The only reason the 10mm was abandon by the FBI was when engineers at Smith and Wesson felt they could produce the results they wanted it a 10mm by shortening the case and keeping the handgun in a 9mm size platform. And the 40 was born. Now , I am not one to tell anyone what to carry, but if power is what you want in an autoloader, the 10mm with its full power loads makes the 45acp anemic. But the question one must ask is what do I really need? I personally like power for the fun of shooting, but the truth is a 38 spl has been doing the job for years and is better today than is was then. We cannot hope to make up for poor marksmenship or a false sense of security just by carrying a cannon. Likewise, our choice of carry should fit the enviroment we choose according to our needs. No matter what anyone says, it is totally irresponsible to carry a caliber of exterme penetration into an area of close human proximity for protection, when it would cause an unnessacary risk to someones child, or other adults, just because they want say they have the biggest and baddest. For anyone to advocate this is irresponsible, shows a lack of knowledge and is not good for our cause as gun owning, ccw proponets. We as a family should always strive to give responsible advice to those with less experiance and knowledge. Im not directing this at anyone, just wanted to share my thoughts.

  7. #52
    Member Array jsunsr's Avatar
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    cmrdredd I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

    1. I guess that's why we have courts. I certainly wouldn't want to be pulled into a civil law suit for killing a child while shooting at a robber. I don't know if I could live with the guilt to begin with. I believe most states you would be paying through the nose.

    2. I have a friend who has a farm (remember not everyone who lives in Illinois lives in Chicago) we shoot in his back yard. There is nothing illiegal about it. But, If I kill his neighbor a mile away I'm in trouble. If not criminal, certainly civil.

    I will live in Illinois only a short time longer and then I'm going back to Texas. I agree, some states have ridiculous laws, but, I do believe that we (gun owners, and self defense advocates) must act responsible, either for our own morale reasons if not for political and legal reasons.

    Finally, I'm not criticizing a 10mm. I like 10mm. I believe the topic started out regarding 44 magnum. To me, a 44 mag for self defense is obsurd. But, that's just me. I imagine along the border, or out west where gun fights may be at longer distances the 44 mag may make sense to some. Or to LE who may be shooting through cars, trucks etc. But my self defense actions will occur face to face or else I'm evacuating the area. No shots fired.

    I know 41 magnum is the same as 10mm, and I would not use full power 41 mag or 10mm for self defense. I load my 10mm with a medium load that will expand but not over penetrate. Like Glockman says, or to paraphrase if I may, to each his own and we each live with the consequences of our decisions.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Actually the 41 was loaded to magnum velocities for police depts, and that is what hurt it. It was supposed to be loaded to velocities of 900-1000 fps as initially recommended by its proponets.
    Huh? I thought that's why it was called a .41 Magnum?
    And what was the thinking behind that brilliant idea? Would that be like carrying a .357 loaded with .38 Specials?
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Huh? I thought that's why it was called a .41 Magnum?
    And what was the thinking behind that brilliant idea? Would that be like carrying a .357 loaded with .38 Specials?
    It's really a strange concept. The 41 mag is the only mag that did not start out as a special. I can't remember if it was Skelton, Jordan, or Cooper or maybe Keith who advocated a 40 caliber at those velocties for law enforcement, but if you so some research I am sure I am correct. Then of course I am getting older and may have a lapse of memory here and there.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Actually I think magnumitis took over during research and development oldvet, you know how the big manafacturers can be.

  11. #56
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    What fits your needs, and your comfortable with.. That's my .02 cents
    --I'M PROUD TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO BEAR ARMS--

    Glock27/ KaBar TDI/ MTAC Holster. I have more also, but this combination works well..



  12. #57
    Senior Member Array tankdriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Unless your state has some restriction on handgun cartridge size, I wouldn't worry about it. Other than that, there's not legality to it.

    Unless you're filling your hollow points with mercury! That could be an issue.

    "I am sure there was more to it than just the caliber in question. The idea that a 10mm is not carried by police is ridiculous. Here in KY, we carried a 10mm for years, so I am sure there were other circumstances involved other than caliber."

    The .41 Mag was a standard round for LE for a long time, and some carried the .44 Mag. The problem wasn't a legal issue, it was controlability. Most couldn't rapid fire either with any measure of accuracy. Likewise, the ultimate reason the FBI rejected the 10mm. That's the reason so many PDs opted for the 9mm--controlibility.

    The .40 S&W is the most common round in LE today because of power, capacity, and controlibility.
    Reread post 46 above.

    10mm hollow point was what he used, what the processor, and expert witness stressed, and one of the things the jury said they considered.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckinfavis View Post
    So are you all telling me that I shouldn't carry my jugde 410? I have one but do not want to crucified by the jury if used on a BG.

    The "Taurus Judge " is so named because of the number of judges who carry it into the courtroom for their protection.
    But if i put down a BG with a expanding copper slug i can go to prison. That a nice thought.
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  14. #59
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsunsr View Post
    cmrdredd I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

    1. I guess that's why we have courts. I certainly wouldn't want to be pulled into a civil law suit for killing a child while shooting at a robber. I don't know if I could live with the guilt to begin with. I believe most states you would be paying through the nose.

    2. I have a friend who has a farm (remember not everyone who lives in Illinois lives in Chicago) we shoot in his back yard. There is nothing illiegal about it. But, If I kill his neighbor a mile away I'm in trouble. If not criminal, certainly civil.

    I will live in Illinois only a short time longer and then I'm going back to Texas. I agree, some states have ridiculous laws, but, I do believe that we (gun owners, and self defense advocates) must act responsible, either for our own morale reasons if not for political and legal reasons.

    Finally, I'm not criticizing a 10mm. I like 10mm. I believe the topic started out regarding 44 magnum. To me, a 44 mag for self defense is obsurd. But, that's just me. I imagine along the border, or out west where gun fights may be at longer distances the 44 mag may make sense to some. Or to LE who may be shooting through cars, trucks etc. But my self defense actions will occur face to face or else I'm evacuating the area. No shots fired.

    I know 41 magnum is the same as 10mm, and I would not use full power 41 mag or 10mm for self defense. I load my 10mm with a medium load that will expand but not over penetrate. Like Glockman says, or to paraphrase if I may, to each his own and we each live with the consequences of our decisions.
    1) if you can't hit your target don't have a gun. Your argument is what exactly? You missed a guy and shot some kid? That's your fault for not getting to the range more, or maybe you were trying to shoot a guy from a distance beyond what would be considered defensive.

    2) Even on your own property, unless the local laws permit it, you cannot discharge a firearm. Most areas do not allow this and you will be subject to legal action for doing so. If you are legal in shooting on your farm, then you better have a proper backstop and know what's beyond it. That's all I can say.

    I don't even know what you're arguing. You said "oh some guy got arrested cause he shot someone a mile away when he was shooting a .44mag at the trash cans." In most places I know just the fact that you were shooting outside is enough to land you in jail. If not, then the moron didn't deserve sympathy for not having a proper backstop.

    Let me put my argument to rest. Know the laws in your state and local area. If you follow those and are aware of your weapon, your target and what's beyond it then there is no worry. If you fail at any of these points there could be problems for you. Both scenarios above were due to not knowing the law or not having the proper backstop and being aware of anything beyond. Even with a .22LR pistol and in some cases a pellet airgun shooting it when you are not at a designated range can be unlawful. Always be aware of your surroundings and the laws to abide by. The more we do our part to make our sport, hobby, or method of defense as safe and legal as possible the better off we will all be in the future.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array Sportsterguy's Avatar
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    I'll stick with packing my .41 S&W 657 in the winter. I know what the round will do to a deer which in this neck of the woods is around 150 lbs. Chances of using it are very slim and I know it'll penetrate a 250 lb. thug with a leather jacket on.

    Most rounds will travel a long ways including a 9mm. I trust my .41 mag much more to stop a fight than any 9mm if I do my part.
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