Under gunned

Under gunned

This is a discussion on Under gunned within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; WARNING I started typing up a simple post and this kind of turned into a essay. Seriously, it's LONG. Anyway, you have been warned. I ...

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Thread: Under gunned

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Under gunned

    WARNING

    I started typing up a simple post and this kind of turned into a essay. Seriously, it's LONG. Anyway, you have been warned.

    I love summer. Well, spring and early summer. Iím not so much a fan of the few weeks a year when itís crazy hot (over 90 degrees). But I love relaxing in a nice pair of roomy cargo shorts and a T-shirt. Iíve lost quite a bit of weight in the last year so as far as clothing goes there have been quite a few changes. The weight loss and clothing both have also affected my CCing.

    Last week was a great weather week. It was about 70 degrees and the sun was out. Perfect weather for the afore mentioned cargo shorts and t-shirt. I put on my Cross Breed Super Tuck and stuck my PT145 in it and I was ready to go. Since it had been a while since I had carried in just a T-shirt I wanted to do a quick mirror check. Not bad but not great. A little bit of printing from the handle when I twisted at the torso. Not bad but not greatÖ You all know what I mean. Thereís different degrees of printing. Thereís ďHOLY @!%@ that guy has a gun!!Ē. Thereís ďThat guy has something on his belt, probably a phone but could possibly be a guní And of course what most of us hope for the ďHuh?Ē. Well I was printing around the having something on my belt that probably was not a gun but possibly was stage which in reality is perfectly fine in 9 out of 10 situations because we all know as CCers that we are over sensitive to printing.

    So really I was probably at the ďhuhĒ stage where I like but it still makes me nervous and I donít like being nervous or uncomfortable. I carry a gun because it makes me safer, not so I can worry about being found out. So, I took off my super tuck and swapped it out for the one for my PT709. Holstered up and checked the mirror again. Not a thing. Twisted, shook, jumped up and down and bent over. No hint of a gun. Perfect! I thought to my self I would just switch to my 709 for the summer. Lotís of people do it. No reason to be married to one gun all year long. So I grabbed my keys and walked out my front door and headed down the road. And then I got a strange feeling. A feeling I have not had in some time. Actually, A feeling I havenít had since I started carrying my PT145 a few months ago. I feltÖunder gunned 

    Allow me to get a few things out of the way straight away. I know that shot placement is more important then caliber. I know that the average distance of a shooting is less then 7 yards. I know that the average number of rounds fired is generally not more then three. I under stand I can carry a extra mag. Ok, Think I got all the run of the mill replies out of the way. Lets continue

    Since Iíve said I all ready know all the stuff that I listed in the paragraph above me I found this quite odd. Itís odd because I REALLY DO know all that stuff and I do believe it. But for some reason I just got used to carrying 11 rounds of .45 and down grading to 8 rounds of 9mm made me feel under gunned. Was it the capacity difference? Was it the caliber difference? Was it the overall more ďpetiteĒ size of the gun that some how offended my masculinity? I honestly donít knowÖ

    To be honest I think first and foremost itís the change in capacity. Even though I know that 8 rounds is in reality a good amount of rounds to send at a bad guy and I know that I can always just reload (As if I havenít found cover by the time I NEED to reload I have seriously screwed up) thereís just something I like about 10. Maybe itís my border line OCD and 10 is just a prettier number then 7 when it comes to mag capacity. I will tell you what I do like however about a 7 round mag. It a LOT easier to carry a single stack mag for reloads on a small frame guy like me then it is a double stack. Which brings me to a interesting thought. When I carried my PT145 I often times didnít carry a reload because a mag was so bloody thick. So I would have only the 11 rounds in the gun. I know that carrying a reload is debatable but I like it more for the chance that I may have a malfunction with my primary mag. Since I have started carrying my 709 again I ALWAYS carry a spare. This in reality brings my round count to 15 which is 4 higher then with my PT145 with no reload and I have a spare in case my primary malfunctions.

    Ok, So I have come to the conclusion that itís not a capacity issue. So how about caliber? I Like 9mm and I like .45. I think they both have their upsides and their down sides. In reality the 9mm is probably a better caliber for me. Even though I donít have a issue controlling a .45 I have to admit I can get faster follow up shots with my 709 and since my theory is anything worth shooting once is worth shooting three times the 709 is the better carry gun as far as caliber goes.

    So whatís left? My manliness? Is my masculinity threatened by switching to a smaller gun? Honestly I donít think thatís it either as I have no problem sporting my man purse (Maxpedition gear slinger) in public. As a matter of fact I wear it proudly.

    WAIT! Thatís it!! I know what it is. Chance. I read a post a few days ago in one of the sections describing a home invasion where 7 armed men broke into a house. And that got me to thinking that in general my PT145 is more raw fire power then my PT709. It got me to thinking that if after firing 4 or 5 rounds they were not retreating that I still had another 5-6 rounds in the gun to do a little more convincing. And then I figured it out.

    Sometimes you just cant win. You canít be ready for EVERY possible situation. You can be ready for most situations but not all. Really itís just a matter of prioritizing. 8 Rounds of 9mm with a reload is going to be sufficient to deal with 99.8 percent of threats I encounter. So that leaves me .2 percent of threats to worry about. Sure, I might not be prepared to repel an attack by a giant lizard monster or a well armed mob but I am a heck of a lot better off then the average unarmed citizen and when I go home and strap on my PT709 after work tonight I think I am going to feel a bit better about it. This has reminded me that I really do need to pick up a home defense shotgun thoughÖ Looks like Iím going home, strapping on that 709 and heading to the gun store. Either way, itís all good!
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...


  2. #2
    Member Array 9mmPro's Avatar
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    if you feel undergunned with a PT709 then carry an anti-aircraft gun , if your a good shot then you got nothing to worry about unless you feel you are not confident you are a good shot then practice some more then you wont feel undergunned.

    i carry a 9mm with 18 rounds i dont feel undergunned cuz i practiced enough to feel confident,


    dont sweat it you be alrite as long as you dont freeze up during a BG encounter.
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  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array clarkston_cz's Avatar
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    I'm nt taksed with the apprehension of dangerous felons anymore.

    My life is pretty sedate.

    If I get into a situation where I have to draw my CCW it will also be when I can
    probably walk or run away.

    My sweet little MDE carries really nice in my fanny pack.
    Even with 2 extra mags and it is still way lighter than any of my CZs in that role.


    Yes, I'd rather have a 9mm or .45 but life isn't perfect.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Snowman23's Avatar
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    That's very interesting, Rollo. My carry options are slightly opposite of yours and I find myself going through a similar choice in the morning. I have an XD9sc w/supertuck that I carry most of the time....I've got the 13 rd mags and rarely carry a reload....I figure 13's enough to get me out of there. The other option, and a new one at that, is my CBOB with a PK Blk Ops Pro. It's got the 8 round mags. Honestly...they are both very concealable. Soooo...when I decide what to strap on each morning I find myself questioning is it better to have 13 rds of 9mm or 8 rds of .45. You mentioned above that you felt undergunned with the smaller caliber & less rounds.... I feel I've got too few rounds when I carry my 45. Now, that being said...I'm not sure what I'm going to do when shorts & tshirt weather come...if it ever does. I'm still in winter clothing considering we got 5 FEET of snow in the past 4 days. I've been considering a .357 snubby for summer clothes, but that raises the same concern that you stated above...larger caliber than my daily 9mm...but far fewer rounds. Oh the dilemma.

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    My carry never changes due to weather, only the area.
    Glock: G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer: P938 9mm Smith and Wesson: Model 437 .38 Spl, Model 65 357 Mag, and Sigma SW9VE 9mm

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    WAIT! Thatís it!! I know what it is. Chance.

    Sometimes you just cant win. You canít be ready for EVERY possible situation. You can be ready for most situations but not all. Really itís just a matter of prioritizing.
    That's about it, for me.

    Given my criteria, I'm comfortable with about ~10rds of 9mm with a couple spare magazines. I'll get by with a BUG and a couple spares, if pressed due to venue or whatever. I have my own size/weight maximums, in terms of how they impact my lifestyle and comfort level. But, in the end I believe my determination and drive to survive an encounter will count for just as much as the missing rounds or "firepower" that I would have had with another setup. Works for me. YMMV.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #7
    los
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    Rollo, it's all psychological.

    It's the diminutive size and weight of the Slim that makes you feel that way.

    You're not under-gunned, my friend. You, Sir, are completely prepared!!
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    The whole time I was an active LEO (Started in 1969) we carried 6 shot revolvers, my off duty weapon was a S&W 5 shot, 2 inch, airweight. Talk about being undergunned, we were undergunned everytime we hit the street.

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    The "if one is good then three is better" mentality is pure human nature. It is as much logical as it is psychological, but not always realistic. Most any carry choice is a comprimise of some degree, but there is always a point of diminishing returns.

    I went through the same progression of thought process with my CC experience. I started with a 5 round .38 snub and felt very good with it. Once I bought an 8 round 9mm, my perspective on the snub was somewhat diminished. Then, when I bought a 10 (or 13, depending on mag) round .40, my perspective on the 8 round 9mm seemed to diminish. For HD, once I bought the Mossy 500 pump 12 ga, the handguns seemed diminutive compared to the shotgun. This is normal, natural, logical thought process. In reality, I know that I am well prepared for 98% of possible encounters with the snub, 9mm, of 40. Some situations you just can't anticipate regardless of your choice. If three armed BGs get the drop on me with guns drawn, I can't possibly out shoot them regardless of how many rounds or mags I've got. In that case, my high cap 40 is of no more benefit than my 5 round snubbie.

    In the end, it is more of a psychological comfort factor based on the human nature of logic and deductive reasoning (IMO). In reality, you're fine. If 8 rounds of 9mm don't get the job done, it's likely that you would have never gotten to the 10th round of the 45 either. If I have an encounter with my 5 round snub and fire 3 rounds and my buddy has the same encounter with a 15 round 9mm and he fires 3 rounds, then the unfired rounds in each weapon made no real difference (other than insurance, or peace of mind).

    For what its worth, I now carry a SP101 .357 magnum (5 shot) most of the time and I feel just fine.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array RebelRabbi's Avatar
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    Well the question arises: What are you preparing for? What are the probable threats in your area? What is the lsrgest weapon that you WILL actually carry on an everyday basis? Is that gun reliable, accurate, powerful and does it have the firepower YOU need?Are you competent with THAT gun? Is the caliber sufficient to meet your needs? Is the capacity of the gun adequate for your needs? When you check off everything on YOUR needs lists, you have your logical choice.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    The "if one is good then three is better" mentality is pure human nature. It is as much logical as it is psychological, but not always realistic. Most any carry choice is a comprimise of some degree, but there is always a point of diminishing returns.

    I went through the same progression of thought process with my CC experience. I started with a 5 round .38 snub and felt very good with it. Once I bought an 8 round 9mm, my perspective on the snub was somewhat diminished. Then, when I bought a 10 (or 13, depending on mag) round .40, my perspective on the 8 round 9mm seemed to diminish. For HD, once I bought the Mossy 500 pump 12 ga, the handguns seemed diminutive compared to the shotgun. This is normal, natural, logical thought process. In reality, I know that I am well prepared for 98% of possible encounters with the snub, 9mm, of 40. Some situations you just can't anticipate regardless of your choice. If three armed BGs get the drop on me with guns drawn, I can't possibly out shoot them regardless of how many rounds or mags I've got. In that case, my high cap 40 is of no more benefit than my 5 round snubbie.

    In the end, it is more of a psychological comfort factor based on the human nature of logic and deductive reasoning (IMO). In reality, you're fine. If 8 rounds of 9mm don't get the job done, it's likely that you would have never gotten to the 10th round of the 45 either. If I have an encounter with my 5 round snub and fire 3 rounds and my buddy has the same encounter with a 15 round 9mm and he fires 3 rounds, then the unfired rounds in each weapon made no real difference (other than insurance, or peace of mind).

    For what its worth, I now carry a SP101 .357 magnum (5 shot) most of the time and I feel just fine.
    Your post wins the thread! You grasped what I was saying PERFECTLY!
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array harley2007's Avatar
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    I too have gone through that scenario when carrying my PM9....which leed me to my Glock 30...but alas, it is hot in Fla and a PM9 is just easier.....so I moved to a PPS in 40, but in reality, as long as I have a quality caliber (9, 40 or 45,etc) and can hit the target and have a reload, I should be good to go for most encounters I would have.....I hope!
    "I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!" - Dorothy Parker

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkston_cz View Post

    I love the grips on your Desert Eagle... Beautiful set.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    All we can do my friend is try our best and be prepared.

    As with our LEOs, when they hit the streets, they are outgunned, we are no different my friends except we cannot call for backup if we get into trouble, so it's best to avoid it if possible.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    Sometimes, I carry two P229 pistols, and spare mags. Sometimes, I carry one SP101 snubby. I don't feel naked when it is just the snubby, nor do I feel invincible when I have the two double-stack pistols. The first shot, or first burst, usually determines the outcome of the fight, IMHO.

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