Da vs dao

This is a discussion on Da vs dao within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am new at this and I do not know if this the correct way to go about asking a question. I have noted that ...

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Thread: Da vs dao

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    New Member Array Pat45's Avatar
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    Da vs dao

    I am new at this and I do not know if this the correct way to go about asking a question. I have noted that some semi automatic handguns have a visible hammer and some do not. I have been looking for a small, easily concealed semi automatic and I would like to know some pros and cons about this feature. I assume that this relates directly to Double Action and Double Action Only features. Any insight into this subject would be appreciated.

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    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum!

    Size, hammer, and action aren't necessarily related.

    Someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't know of any autoloaders that have shrouded or otherwise non-exposed hammers. When you look at an auto that doesn't have a hammer, you are generally looking at a striker fired gun. Basically, a striker is kind of like the hammer and firing pin all in one---the trigger pulls the striker against a spring, then releases it forward to hit the primer. No separate hammer involved.

    Striker fired guns will basically have the same trigger pull every time. A hammer fired gun may be double-action only (DAO) and have the same pull every time; it might be DA for the first shot and SA for follow-up shots; it might even be cocked-and-locked single action only (SAO).

    Glocks are striker-fired, and may be small pocket-sized guns or full sized. A SIG P239 is a compact gun with a hammer that can be either DA/SA or DAO (actually, a SIG-specific type of DAO called DAK). The SIG P238 is a pocket-sized, hammer-fired SAO gun.

    The main difference between striker-fired and hammer-fired guns is that DAO or DA/SA hammer-fired guns have second strike capability; that is, if the first trigger pull fails to fire the round, you can immediately pull the trigger again and try to fire the round a second time. Some people think this is important because the vast majority of quality factory ammo that fails to fire once will go off if hit a second time. If you have a striker or an SAO hammer gun, once you get the dud you have to do a full tap-rack-bang stoppage drill.
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    The Beretta M9 (for example) is a DA/SA meaning the first round fired is double action and each round fired there after is single action. The biggest problem with this system is that the first trigger pull is different from the second and can result in decreased accuracy.

    I would recommend to almost anyone to get a pistol that has the same trigger pull for each round fired.
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    Member Array 9mmPro's Avatar
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    i like the DAO in my SR9, i know what to expect on the trigger pull ,unlike my PT92C which is DA/SA it does affect my point of aim on the second shot.

    DAO striker fired pistols are alot better for follow up shots and so is a locked an cocked 1911.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    The Beretta M9 (for example) is a DA/SA meaning the first round fired is double action and each round fired there after is single action. The biggest problem with this system is that the first trigger pull is different from the second and can result in decreased accuracy.

    I would recommend to almost anyone to get a pistol that has the same trigger pull for each round fired.
    Ditto....was at the range recently with a buddy who typically carries 1911's....he was trying out his new (to him) S&W Pocket 9 which is DA/SA......the trigger pull/travel was soooo long that he couldn't keep it on target for that first shot.
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    The disadvantage of the DAO, as mentioned, is the lack of a second try if the first fails. But, there's no guarantee the second will work if the round has a bad primer, so...

    Of course the trigger pull of a SA/DA trigger is stiffer in DA; it's doing more work, the same as in a revolver. Some are rediculously stiff, while others, like my CZ-82, are firm but not difficult. That makes it less likely to fire with a round in the chamber.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    The disadvantage of the DAO, as mentioned, is the lack of a second try if the first fails. But, there's no guarantee the second will work if the round has a bad primer, so...
    I assume you meant SAO here, as a traditional DAO (not striker fired) most certainly does have "second strike" capability.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I assume you meant SAO here, as a traditional DAO (not striker fired) most certainly does have "second strike" capability.
    I have a Glock. Here's what a site says of the action:
    "While the Glock pistol might more accurately be described as "single-and-a-half-action only," the Glock pistol was one of the first to use the DAO-style action with an internal striker rather than an exposed hammer."

    From Wikipedia on DAO:
    "In the case of the Glock and Kahr semi-automatic pistols the striker is "cocked" to an intermediate position by the operation of the slide. The double action trigger completes the firing sequence from this intermediate cocked position. This is a critical point to understand for the successful operation of the firearm. Firearms of this type are operated practically as single action weapons. In order for the firing mechanism to function the slide must be operated to bring the striker to the cocked intermediate position; it is not possible to operate the firing mechanism multiple times without operating the slide between each firing sequence."

    Call it what you may, I guess it's not "traditional." But then, at the time it was conceived, nothing about a Glock was traditional. I've never heard it (Glock) called anything other than DAO, and it is striker fired. You get one and one try only with the trigger unless you recycle the slide. Some other makes (those with hammers) may differ.
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    Glocks call themselves Safe Action Pistols, to differentiate them from DAOs. So, if you have one, I have to assume that you've heard it called something other than a DAO at least once: when you looked at the box and/or owner's manual...

    Both of the exerpts you posted fail to call it a DAO as well - the first calls it a "single-and-a-half" action, and the other says that it is "operated practically as [a] single action weapon..."

    Here's a link to an article that might interest you...Why Glocks are NOT Double Action

    As another note, the Glock, while evolutionary, wasn't as incredibly unique as you might think. It was neither the first high capacity pistol, the first striker fired pistol, nor the first pistol to extensively use polymers. I will agree, however, that it wasn't "traditional."
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Glocks are NOT DAO. If they were, you would not have to cycle the slide to pull the trigger again.

    As far as DA/SA, I MUCH prefer it to DAO. I am much more accurate with my DA/SA Sig P220R, than any DAO gun I've fired, even other Sigs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Both of the exerpts you posted fail to call it a DAO as well - the first calls it a "single-and-a-half" action, and the other says that it is "operated practically as [a] single action weapon..."
    Okay, both exerpts came from Googling DAO, but I left off most of the site info for the sake of saving space. Odd that it listed Glock under DAO. So ... call it whatever you wish. In spite of sematics, my firearm is a gun and my weapon, cannoners and the NRA not withstanding. But you get the idea, right?
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    Yes, we know what you're getting at, but for people not intimately familiar with all the terminology, it helps to be as specific as possible. If the OP read your post and went away from DAO because it didn't offer "second-strike" capability, he'd be going 180 degrees away from the truth...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    OPFOR's post reminded me that there are some pistols that are SAO but offer a second strike capability like the Taurus PT-111. It is Single Action and if a round is not fired then it becomes DA/SA (of course if it doesn't fire as DA it stays DA)
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    OPFOR's post reminded me that there are some pistols that are SAO but offer a second strike capability like the Taurus PT-111. It is Single Action and if a round is not fired then it becomes DA/SA (of course if it doesn't fire as DA it stays DA)
    Not sure if it's the same as the 24/7 Pro, but that is technically a SA/DA, not DA/SA.
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    And, by definition, if the trigger will cock the hammer, it isn't SAO. SAO, again by definition, means that the trigger performs a single action, only - it releases the hammer/striker. If the trigger can perform more than a single action, well, then it isn't single action only.

    Most DA/SA pistols (all, that I can think of off hand) can be manually put into SA mode by "thumb cocking" the hammer, but this (obviously) doesn't make it an SAO pistol...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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