Revo vs semi; DA vs SA - you decide - video demo - don't assume

Revo vs semi; DA vs SA - you decide - video demo - don't assume

This is a discussion on Revo vs semi; DA vs SA - you decide - video demo - don't assume within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well, this won't be quite what you expected from the title. This is just a demo of what can be done with a revolver in ...

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  1. #1
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    Revo vs semi; DA vs SA - you decide - video demo - don't assume

    Well, this won't be quite what you expected from the title. This is just a demo of what can be done with a revolver in DA trigger mode and a M&P .45ACP (which interestingly, IIRC, S&W lists as .45AP). ALL revolver shots are DA. In all fairness to the M&P, I had only shot 100 rounds through it prior to this. I think the trigger will smooth out by around 500 rounds.

    The three guns used are the M&P .45 full size, a model 60 S&W, 2-1/8" barrel, and a 686 S&W, 2-1/2" barrel.

    The targets are steel dingers, 62-65 yards away, depending on whose rangefinder you use. The smaller dinger is a 15" diameter disc; the larger measures 20" wide by 37" tall with a trapazoidal shape at the top and bottom.

    If you think DA isn't accurate, watch carefully. Also keep in mind that both revovlers have a shorter sight radius than the full size auto.

    Oh, yeah, the helmet is not for safety, it holds a helmet cam. This is the helmet I use for tree climbing and I figured it'd be neat to see the shots from my perspective.

    BTW, which gun do you think would have scored higher?

    YouTube - 686-m60-M&P .45 YT version 480p.mpg
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  2. #2
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    Mighty fine shooting there, Tangle.
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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I would've thought that the M&P would have shot better, due to it's longer sight radius.

    It looks like you've just had more time with the snubbies.

    From your video, it appears that trigger manipulation is a bigger factor than sight picture for accuracy. The wheel guns have no rear sight, right? Just a groove in the frame, isn't there?
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    I would've thought that the M&P would have shot better, due to it's longer sight radius.
    The M&P probably will shoot a little better after about 500 rounds. But I've shot DAKs, Glocks, DA/SA and I shoot the 686 in DA as well, or better, than any of them. I will have to say that if the M&P had been my 9mm, you would have seen some difference, just not sure how much.

    I think the sight radius does make some difference, but there are other factors too that are hard to isolate, like trigger pull, type of sights, grip/fit, etc. and they make a difference too. But the fact that I shot a stock 2-1/8" revo in DA almost as well, if not as well (I had a 5 for 5 with both) as a full size semi, indicates sight radius and trigger type may not be as critical as we think.

    I'm not saying triggers and sight radius doesn't matter, I'm saying it may not matter as much as we think.

    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    ...From your video, it appears that trigger manipulation is a bigger factor than sight picture for accuracy.
    I hear/read that a lot - it simply isn't true. The two are inseparable. It doesn't matter how good the sight picture is if you mismanage the trigger - the gun will move. It doesn't matter how well you manage the trigger, if the sights aren't properly aligned the perfect 'trigger manipulation' will send the bullet where the sights were indexed.

    The recipe for accuracy is simple and consists of three things - consistent sight picture and consistent trigger pull and go slow. The secret is to shoot every shot exactly the same. The same sight picture and the same trigger pull - every single time. You will be either reinforce your accuracy by consistent shooting, or you will reinforce bad habits and accuracy will suffer.

    The 'slow' part, helps establish good technique. As you practice good technique, you not only will get better, but your speed will go up as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    ...The wheel guns have no rear sight, right? Just a groove in the frame, isn't there?
    A 686 has a stock adjustable rear sight and I tuned the trigger. The model 60 is completely stock and yes, only has a groove for a rear sight.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Array Andy W.'s Avatar
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    Dang that's some good DA shooting!
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    Distinguished Member Array Arko's Avatar
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    Nice job. I never feel disadvantaged with a wheel gun.
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  7. #7
    Member Array p3at's Avatar
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    Interesting video, good shooting. Thanks for posting.

    LOL on the disclosures though.

    IMO a little over the top.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by p3at View Post
    Interesting video, good shooting. Thanks for posting.

    LOL on the disclosures though.

    IMO a little over the top.
    I put similar disclaimers on my tree climbing videos as well. You think it's 'over the top' to advise/warn/remind people about the potential danger of handling firearms in a video about shooting?

    I had an experience with a guy regarding my treeclimbing videos. He kept watching the videos, asking questions and I realized the guy had no instruction or training and apparently was trying to duplicate something I was doing in a treeclimbing video. I advised him to get some proper training.

    Another guy, after seeing some treeclimbing videos, went to Ace Hardware, bought some rope and hardware and thought he could do what we were doing with specialized gear. You just never know who's gonna do what. So I add disclaimers for my protection and as a warning/reminder to all that see the videos.
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    Senior Member Array DUNDEM's Avatar
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    That's some good shooting. I'm sure it folks with $4000 1911/2011 wishing they could do that...lol.

  10. #10
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    That is much better shooting than I'm capable of! Nice to watch.

    When I started shooting with snubbies, I expected my accuracy to plummet. It hasn't...exactly. On azimuth, I do as well as I do with a 6" Dan Wesson (still well below your video). It is in elevation that I make most of my misses. That suggests the problem isn't the gun or the radius, but that I'm not consistent getting the front sight level...and I think that is switching from a gun with fairly deep sights to a very shallow one. If I get back to basics, I should do as well with a 2" M60 as I am with a 6" DW.

    I think the grip of my P90 is just too big for my small hand, so I may be in the market for a semi-auto with narrow grips. Maybe THEN I could hit a barn door with one...

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    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post

    The two are inseparable. It doesn't matter how good the sight picture is if you mismanage the trigger - the gun will move. It doesn't matter how well you manage the trigger, if the sights aren't properly aligned the perfect 'trigger manipulation' will send the bullet where the sights were indexed.

    The recipe for accuracy is simple and consists of three things - consistent sight picture and consistent trigger pull and go slow. The secret is to shoot every shot exactly the same. The same sight picture and the same trigger pull - every single time. You will be either reinforce your accuracy by consistent shooting, or you will reinforce bad habits and accuracy will suffer.
    I couldn't agree more
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    That is much better shooting than I'm capable of! Nice to watch.

    When I started shooting with snubbies, I expected my accuracy to plummet. It hasn't...exactly. On azimuth, I do as well as I do with a 6" Dan Wesson (still well below your video).
    Thanks, however, You may not can shoot like that right now, but if you practice good techniques you may do even better.

    You know, my first inclination was to say you should see a difference between a snubby and a 6" barrel, but I have a 4" 686 set up exactly like my 2-1/2" 686 and I see no difference in performance - well if anything, I shoot the 2-1/2" just a bit better. Things just aren't always as it seems they should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    ...It is in elevation that I make most of my misses. That suggests the problem isn't the gun or the radius, but that I'm not consistent getting the front sight level...and I think that is switching from a gun with fairly deep sights to a very shallow one. If I get back to basics, I should do as well with a 2" M60 as I am with a 6" DW.
    Dry firing can help with both the trigger pull and sight picture. You just have to get where that sight picture is constant and to do that you have to have good trigger control - they are just unseparable and equally important - for accuracy that is.

    Be sure you focus on the front sight. Your eye can not focus on the rear sight, the front sight, and the target at the same time. So focus on the front sight, not the rear sight or target. Pretend I've put a tiny little message on your front sight and you're trying to read it - that sharp of a focus on the front sight. Judge left and right alignment by balancing the air gap on each side of the front sight. Judge the elevation by the top of the front sight being exactly level with the top edges of the rear sight.

    Be really, really sure you are not getting the perfect sight picture and then pulling the trigger suddenly to 'capture' that sight picture. That will move the gun. Hold the sight picture and pull the trigger smoothly until the shot breaks - it should be a surprise. You'll know when it's close, but just keep pulling while maintaining the proper sight picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    ...I think the grip of my P90 is just too big for my small hand, so I may be in the market for a semi-auto with narrow grips. Maybe THEN I could hit a barn door with one...
    Grips are important, but OTOH, I find we have a considerable tolerance range on grips. Still, if the grip is too big, it will certainly impact your shooting.

    Semis? I thought you liked/carried revolvers?
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  13. #13
    Member Array Martial Archer's Avatar
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    Darn fine shooting! In my dreams I shoot that well .

    Loved the helmet cam too!
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    ...Be really, really sure you are not getting the perfect sight picture and then pulling the trigger suddenly to 'capture' that sight picture. That will move the gun. Hold the sight picture and pull the trigger smoothly until the shot breaks - it should be a surprise...

    Semis? I thought you liked/carried revolvers?
    Golly - how did you know my most consistent source of truly AWFUL shots? When I try hard enough, I can miss by amazing distances!

    Revolvers will always be my love, but semi-automatics have their uses as well. I just resent someone telling me revolvers aren't acceptable for SD. Right now, I could put 5 rounds into a man's torso at 50 feet without really trying - with my revolvers. My P90? Not without a lot of concentration...if it isn't made of paper and is more than 20 feet from me, it is pretty safe from my P90. So which gun should I rely on for defense?

    But semi-autos have advantages. If I found one I liked shooting, I could learn. I respect them, just not to the exclusion of all others.

    And tonight, when I go to bed, my Ruger Alaskan with Grizzly 260 grain 44 special ammo will be on the nightstand. The M60 will be nearby as well. If that isn't enough...well, the Ruger ought to make a pretty good 2.5 lb hammer.

    Thanks for the video and advice!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    Golly - how did you know my most consistent source of truly AWFUL shots? When I try hard enough, I can miss by amazing distances!
    LOL! Because a gun is a machine. If you hold the sight picture through the trigger pull, the shot has to go where the sights are indexed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    ...Revolvers will always be my love, but semi-automatics have their uses as well. I just resent someone telling me revolvers aren't acceptable for SD. Right now, I could put 5 rounds into a man's torso at 50 feet without really trying - with my revolvers. My P90? Not without a lot of concentration...if it isn't made of paper and is more than 20 feet from me, it is pretty safe from my P90. So which gun should I rely on for defense?
    Just like dogs are special people, revos are special guns. Obviously I like revos as well as you.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    ...And tonight, when I go to bed, my Ruger Alaskan with Grizzly 260 grain 44 special ammo will be on the nightstand. The M60 will be nearby as well. If that isn't enough...well, the Ruger ought to make a pretty good 2.5 lb hammer.
    Yep, that ought to settle the issue! I like the attitude too - no givin' up - if bad comes to worse, you've still got a 'hammer'!

    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    ...Thanks for the video and advice!
    You're quite welcome!

    I think some CQB videos will show up before too long.
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