Second strike

This is a discussion on Second strike within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Not when that's my experience with Taurus. When I have actually had Taurus guns that have that issue, then several years later they market that ...

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Thread: Second strike

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Sarge45's Avatar
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    Not when that's my experience with Taurus. When I have actually had Taurus guns that have that issue, then several years later they market that their guns have "second strike capability", the link can be reasonably made without much argument. Would you agree ?

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  3. #32
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    I was just razzin' a little.

    However in the OP, there was no mention of brand, just the feature, and as I pointed out this is a feature on many manufacturer's guns. I seem to recall Sig advertising second strike capability a time or two.
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  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Sarge45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I was just razzin' a little.

    However in the OP, there was no mention of brand, just the feature, and as I pointed out this is a feature on many manufacturer's guns. I seem to recall Sig advertising second strike capability a time or two.
    I know you was. I just have a sore spot for Taurus and when it was mentioned in the OP that whole marketing ploy was the first thing that popped into my head and I had to mention it. I have guns that have that "ability" for sure. One I don't have any more though is the "T" brand.

    It's all good Tangle. Thanks for making me think.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    As for guns ads mentioning second-strike capability: Some folks WANT second-strike capability, and will only own pistols capable of that function. So, manufacturers will mention that, to sell to those folks, I would think. Simple as that.

    My favored defensive autopistols, SIGs, do have second-strike capability, but I don't train myself to use that in a fight.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge45 View Post
    I know you was. I just have a sore spot for Taurus and when it was mentioned in the OP that whole marketing ploy was the first thing that popped into my head and I had to mention it. I have guns that have that "ability" for sure. One I don't have any more though is the "T" brand.

    It's all good Tangle. Thanks for making me think.
    You aren't alone, a lot of people have a sore spot for the T brand.

    And really I only meant my comments for some light hearted chatter - didn't intentionally mean to make you think - .
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  7. #36
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    I think the bottom line is, the tap-rack has a much higher probability of fixing the problem.
    Once you practice it enough it actuallly becomes second nature and almost without thought. No BANG, then TRB.

    Another thing...I see some refer to it as Tap,Rack,BANG!

    I learned it as Tap,Rack,Bump....where you actually bump the end of the slide to make sure that it is in battery.


    I never did quite agree with the ASSESS stuck in there though. I mean, if they needed to be shot in the first place and your gun failed to deleiver, why re assess? Seems like a waste of time to me.
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I think the bottom line is, the tap-rack has a much higher probability of fixing the problem.
    Once you practice it enough it actuallly becomes second nature and almost without thought. No BANG, then TRB.

    Another thing...I see some refer to it as Tap,Rack,BANG!

    I learned it as Tap,Rack,Bump....where you actually bump the end of the slide to make sure that it is in battery.
    I was taught tap-rack-bang throughout all my training. Perhaps bump is not a bad idea - a little more time consuming, maybe superfluous.

    I had tap-rack-bang in my post (the line you quoted) and thought maybe the bang on the end would be distracting from the second strike vs TRB so I left the bang off.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    ...I never did quite agree with the ASSESS stuck in there though. I mean, if they needed to be shot in the first place and your gun failed to deleiver, why re assess? Seems like a waste of time to me.
    I'm an assessor , but I think assessing should be done by the time the gun comes back in service. That would keep one from shooting someone that ceased his attack just as your gun went down and by the time you re-engage the threat that was, may not be any more.

    One should be able to do a tap rack while keeping the eyes on the threat. There's really not much going on at the gun during the tap-rack and there may be a lot going on at the threat. We may not can shoot, but we may want to duck and dodge.
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Once you practice it enough it actuallly becomes second nature and almost without thought. No BANG, then TRB.

    Another thing...I see some refer to it as Tap,Rack,BANG!

    I learned it as Tap,Rack,Bump....where you actually bump the end of the slide to make sure that it is in battery.


    I never did quite agree with the ASSESS stuck in there though. I mean, if they needed to be shot in the first place and your gun failed to deleiver, why re assess? Seems like a waste of time to me.

    Yup me too..... It's always funny how some try to reinvent the wheel on just about everything. If you were in the middle of a fight what the heck changed in the split second that the pistol stopped functioning.

    IMB it'll alwasy be "Tap, Rack, and "BANG" let the other guy access and get shot.
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  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    the bump comes before the trb to be sure the gun is in battery...then a second trigger pull would be warranted...this usually is only used when the slide hasnt gone into battery and the trigger pull gives you nothing...including the empty click you normally get when a bad primer is struck...when that occurs you give the slide a rap in the back and fire the round...

    bumping the slide after a tap & rack would be a waste of time as racking the slide has sent a new round into battery and unless you know your gun has a problem you would be wasting time manually trying to get it into battery...time that you should be spending shooting the bad guy before you were interupted by a bad round...

    but if youve got that kind of time you can bump all you want...i just want my hand off the slide the moment the next round is chambered cause i have a feeling i need it now...

    as far as the assessment goes i'm thinking thats already been made and thats why you were shooting in the first place...time is life...

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    ...If you were in the middle of a fight what the heck changed in the split second that the pistol stopped functioning.
    I kinda doubt you can recognize a failure to fire in the heat of a gunfight and TRB on top of that in a split second.

    It has been shown repeatedly that it takes about a second for us to just respond, then probably another second to TRB and get back on target. In that time, the guy could have thrown down his gun and if you don't assess, you will shoot an unarmed man.
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  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I kinda doubt you can recognize a failure to fire in the heat of a gunfight and TRB on top of that in a split second.

    It has been shown repeatedly that it takes about a second for us to just respond, then probably another second to TRB and get back on target. In that time, the guy could have thrown down his gun and if you don't assess, you will shoot an unarmed man.
    and it would certainly be an unfortunate time for him to throw down his firearm...or...an unfortunate time for me to be spending that extra time reassessing while he could be laying more fire on me...

    but i get where youre going...i guess if things have gotten awfully quiet while you were playing trb you might wonder whats going on...but in all seriousness i have a feeling he is gonna see it as more of an opportunity to finish what he started as opposed to surrender...

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    All Sigs [...] have second strike capability.
    I am pretty sure my single-action-only SIG P220s would disagree with you.

    As for the original question, I like second strike, but I don't consider the lack of that capability to be a deal breaker. In my experience, probably every stoppage I have ever had in an autoloader has been an improperly seated magazine, an extractor problem, or an extraction problem caused by cheap/weak brass.

    The way I look at it, though, is that if I am firing off multiple shots under stress and I do get a dud round, odds are I will be past BANG BACK CLICK and onto the next trigger pull before I realize something is wrong, hence I might get a BANG before I even get around to tap-rack-assess. If I do stop at the first CLICK to deal with it, I haven't lost anything. If I CLICK twice on a dud round because I kept pulling the trigger, I haven't lost anything. But if I get that CLICK BANG, well, then, I may have just saved myself a malfunction drill.
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    and it would certainly be an unfortunate time for him to throw down his firearm...or...an unfortunate time for me to be spending that extra time reassessing while he could be laying more fire on me...

    but i get where youre going...i guess if things have gotten awfully quiet while you were playing trb you might wonder whats going on...but in all seriousness i have a feeling he is gonna see it as more of an opportunity to finish what he started as opposed to surrender...
    And he can raise his hands as fast as we could recognize a FTF, do a TRB, and get the gun back on the threat.

    I didn't say we should take extra time to assess. I said the assessing should be done during the TRB. Are we not watching the threat while we do the TRB? If we are then we are in a continuous assessment mode that adds no time at all and just might prevent us from shooting a man that now has his hands in the air.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I kinda doubt you can recognize a failure to fire in the hear of a gunfight and TRB on top of that in a split second.

    It has been shown repeatedly that it takes about a second for us to just respond, then probably another second to TRB and get back on target. In that time, the guy could have thrown down his gun and if you don't assess, you will shoot an unarmed man.
    Well I'd say you're spot on with that assessment, but my point was mainly directed at the fact that, in a gun fight I seriously doubt if you will be anymore able to do any kind of effective assessment, unless you're behind cover and already cleared and recharged your weapon.

    IMO, it's a Tap Rack, Get back in the fight "Bang" not an assessment situation, In fact it's most likely gonna be something along the lines of. Malfunction occurs, retreat to cover if available and then clear and recharge from there. The split second thing was more over meant at the thought process between the two actions, not the act of the TRB itself. YMMV
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    I am pretty sure my single-action-only SIG P220s would disagree with you.
    You got me! As a matter of fact, my Sig 220 SAO would disagree too. The same would be true for Sig's 1911.

    BTW, how do you like your 220 SAO?
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