Second strike - Page 4

Second strike

This is a discussion on Second strike within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by bladenbullet the bump comes before the trb to be sure the gun is in battery...then a second trigger pull would be warranted...this ...

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Thread: Second strike

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    the bump comes before the trb to be sure the gun is in battery...then a second trigger pull would be warranted...this usually is only used when the slide hasnt gone into battery and the trigger pull gives you nothing...including the empty click you normally get when a bad primer is struck...when that occurs you give the slide a rap in the back and fire the round...

    bumping the slide after a tap & rack would be a waste of time as racking the slide has sent a new round into battery and unless you know your gun has a problem you would be wasting time manually trying to get it into battery...time that you should be spending shooting the bad guy before you were interupted by a bad round...

    but if youve got that kind of time you can bump all you want...i just want my hand off the slide the moment the next round is chambered cause i have a feeling i need it now...

    as far as the assessment goes i'm thinking thats already been made and thats why you were shooting in the first place...time is life...
    +1 that's the meat and potatoes of it right there.
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  2. #47
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    All Ruger P-Series Has second strike capability, But TRB would be the best bet. If you pull trigger again, unless bullet rotates the firering pin will hit the same palce JMO ; )
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Well I'd say you're spot on with that assessment, but my point was mainly directed at the fact that, in a gun fight I seriously doubt if you will be anymore able to do any kind of effective assessment, unless you're behind cover and already cleared and recharged your weapon.
    If one is not constantly assessing, how would one know when the gunfight is over?

    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    ...IMO, it's a Tap Rack, Get back in the fight "Bang" not an assessment situation, In fact it's most likely gonna be something along the lines of. Malfunction occurs, retreat to cover if available and then clear and recharge from there. The split second thing was more over meant at the thought process between the two actions, not the act of the TRB itself. YMMV
    You asked what could happen in the split second of a TRB? I was simply pointing out the process of thinking and doing takes more like 2 seconds. The gun fight could be over.

    But you're thinking one should not be watching the threat and assessing during the TRB, just tap rack and shoot the guy again?
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  4. #49
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    If one is not constantly assessing, how would one know when the gunfight is over?
    When the threat has either left, or is lying in a heap.

    You asked what could happen in the split second of a TRB? I was simply pointing out the process of thinking and doing takes more like 2 seconds. The gun fight could be over.
    No, I ask what the could've changed in that time that would give someone pause and not want to finish what their pistol wouldn't. If the threat was trying to kill you your goal is to kill it period. Truth be known it should be, Tap, Rack, reacquire and fire!

    But you're thinking one should not be watching the threat and assessing during the TRB, just tap rack and shoot the guy again?
    If you can stand there for the couple seconds to clear and recharge while rounds are whizzing by, then you my friend are a better man than I. I'll duck for cover and do my business from there, or even better yet retreat to safety if possible, being that my pistol failed, but hey to each his own.

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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    When the threat has either left, or is lying in a heap.
    Do you realize that statement essentially says, it doesn't matter if the threat throws down his gun, puts his hands in the air, it doesn't matter, you're gonna keep shooting him until he is lying in a heap?

    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    ...No, I ask what the could've changed in that time that would give someone pause and not want to finish what their pistol wouldn't. If the threat was trying to kill you your goal is to kill it period. Truth be known it should be, Tap, Rack, reacquire and fire!
    I know of no shooting school that teaches to tap rack and fire regardless of what's happening. I've been to Gunsite for four handgun courses, Thunder Ranch Level II handgun, Blackwater Handgun I & II and none of them teach that.

    The reason they don't, as it was explained to me, is that things can change rapidly in a gunfight. If our gun fails to fire, it will take about two seconds to get the gun going. If we just come back up and fire more, we may be shooting a guy with his hands in the air and witnesses will report that.

    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    ...If you can stand there for the couple seconds to clear and recharge while rounds are whizzing by, then you my friend are a better man than I. I'll duck for cover and do my business from there, or even better yet retreat to safety if possible, being that my pistol failed, but hey to each his own.
    That's exactly what we should do; in fact, we should be behind cover to start with. Although cover may not be available in the time frame we have.

    But even with cover, we still have the same thing - our gun goes down, we're behind cover, we tap and rack and in this case, since we may have lost visual contact, we must assess. What if he's stepped behind a bystander when we ducked for cover to fix our gun? Or again, maybe he's had enough and has his hands in the air?
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  6. #51
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    i think there may be a disconnect on what the definition of assess is and the process we use to shoot at an aggressor....

    the trigger doesnt get pulled unless what we intend to shoot is identified as the target...trb or not that is the meat of the game...nobody in their right mind is going to trb and just start pulling the trigger recklessly in the direction they were originally shooting...the target must be reaquired at that point and reengaged...if you call that assessment then we actually agree...i was starting to get the impression that you saw the non-assessment group as just shooting blindly in the direction we were originally shooting and we saw you taking some time to reassess the entire situation...as i stated previously i dont see an aggressor stopping and dropping his weapon when i experience a malfunction but i do believe that during any self defense encounter we are continually assessing our position and mission...

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i think there may be a disconnect on what the definition of assess is and the process we use to shoot at an aggressor....

    the trigger doesnt get pulled unless what we intend to shoot is identified as the target...trb or not that is the meat of the game...nobody in their right mind is going to trb and just start pulling the trigger recklessly in the direction they were originally shooting...the target must be reaquired at that point and reengaged...if you call that assessment then we actually agree...i was starting to get the impression that you saw the non-assessment group as just shooting blindly in the direction we were originally shooting and we saw you taking some time to reassess the entire situation...as i stated previously i dont see an aggressor stopping and dropping his weapon when i experience a malfunction but i do believe that during any self defense encounter we are continually assessing our position and mission...
    I made it abundantly clear from my first post that assessment shouldn't take 'extra' time and we should be assessing on a continuous basis as we do the TR. I even emphasized that we should be watching the threat while we do the TR because we may need to dodge or duck - that's continuous assessment, I even used the term continous assessment in my early post.

    Somebody then claimed we wouldn't have the presence of mind to assess what's going on in a gunfight, but purportedly, some how we'd have the presence of mind to assess that we had a FTF and know what to do right away AND it was clearly stated, that no matter what the situation was they would began firing again.

    As far as a threat surrendering, you ever seen anyone react to being shot? Who's to say one would not stop an assault once he's been shot? Seems to me that's a very likely thing to occur. There are numerous accounts of civies ceasing fire because the threat stopped after being shot, and in some cases after just being shot at.
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  8. #53
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    Oops, I just re-read my last post - that didn't come out exactly right.

    I was just trying to clear up any confusion about what I said and why it seemed clear to me that some were promoting no assessment whatsoever after the TR. I did NOT perceive your comments like that.

    Anyway, sorry about the overtone, I really didn't mean it that way.
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  9. #54
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    I'm with Tangle, there should be a continuous assessment of the situation, that is why I added it as part of the discussion. If you've ever done simunitions training, you've probably experienced a malfunction and had to do a TR. In my simunitions training, the instructors make it a point to move, press their attack and even dissengage completely (just like in the real world) while you are dealing with your malfunction.
    Many people (as Tangle stated) do give up after being shot and even just shot at. If you TR reaquire fire as your malfunction drill, you're asking for murder charges somewhere down the road.
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  10. #55
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    FOF (Simunitions) training is an eye opener isn't it!
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Oops, I just re-read my last post - that didn't come out exactly right.

    I was just trying to clear up any confusion about what I said and why it seemed clear to me that some were promoting no assessment whatsoever after the TR. I did NOT perceive your comments like that.

    Anyway, sorry about the overtone, I really didn't mean it that way.
    i get it and we are all guilty of it...thats why it went the direction it did...thats why i posted regarding the disconnect in the thinking of the 2 camps...

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    FOF (Simunitions) training is an eye opener isn't it!
    There's NOTHING like it, and IMO, no better training.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  13. #58
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    And then you have a situation in the darkness of night...
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Once you practice it enough it actuallly becomes second nature and almost without thought. No BANG, then TRB.

    Another thing...I see some refer to it as Tap,Rack,BANG!

    I learned it as Tap,Rack,Bump....where you actually bump the end of the slide to make sure that it is in battery.


    I never did quite agree with the ASSESS stuck in there though. I mean, if they needed to be shot in the first place and your gun failed to deleiver, why re assess? Seems like a waste of time to me.
    When I worked for the NYPD, I attended a requal one year and the instructors informed us that it is no longer tap, rack, bang but tap, rack re-assess. The reason that they gave us (if I remember correctly) was that a trooper down south shot a man who had dropped his weapon and put his hands up. The trooper later stated that he was trained to tap, rack, bang, so after he had a malfunction that is what he did.

    Again, this is from the mouth of a range instructor at Rodmen's Neck (NYPD) to a bunch of in-service cops at a requal. I don't know if this was the only reason for the change or if there were other events as well.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    There's NOTHING like it, and IMO, no better training.
    That's really where 'real training/learning' takes place.

    It so emphasizes that a gunfight is what it is, not what we think or want it to be. Things don't go like we anticipate. It's amazing what thinking you could be shot, or even a BG jumping around the corner so fast you can't react does to you.

    In one house clearing drill I was in, I set it in my mind to believe that it was as real as I could to intensify the pressure. I found that I was consciously making my self breath, I even mentioned it to the instructor and he chuckled.

    The unknown and knowing you could be jumped or shot at any moment is a whole different world than shooting at passive targets.
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