Do you really have enough stopping power?

This is a discussion on Do you really have enough stopping power? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Being that dog attacks are by far my biggest concern, I read stories like this one and I come to the realization that a little ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 60

Thread: Do you really have enough stopping power?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,115

    Do you really have enough stopping power?

    Being that dog attacks are by far my biggest concern, I read stories like this one and I come to the realization that a little .380 is not even close to being effective. I doubt that 9mm is enough in a real life situation like the following story. These dogs are far more difficult to take down than humans. The officer shot this dog three times mid-air and it was still going strong. I was convinced long ago that bigger IS better. People should carry what will be an effective round to do the job rather than look for a gun that is easier and lighter to carry. Form follows function and convenience should be low on the priority scale. IMO.



    A veteran Elgin police officer over the weekend shot and killed a pit bull that police say jumped at him with its mouth wide open.

    Meanwhile, the dog's owner, Faustino Gonzalez, 53, of the 500 block of Walnut Street, has been arrested on an obstructing justice charge for ignoring countless police commands to restrain his dog named Snoopy, Lt. Glenn Theriault said.

    Gonzalez has also been cited under a series of new local laws meant to crack down on people who don't control their dogs.

    At 6:39 p.m. Saturday, police were called to Gonzalez's home in the 500 block of Walnut Street on a report of a loose pit bull.

    Officers arrived and Gonzalez, seated in a chair in front of his garage with several beers, got up and put Snoopy in a fenced area.

    That should have been the end of it.

    But 58 minutes later, police were again dispatched to Gonzalez's house for the same reason.

    According to Theriault:

    Officers arrived and said Snoopy was running loosed outside the house.

    As two officers got out of the squad car, he ran at both officers and they got back into their squad until he ran to the driveway. Officers told Gonzalez 15 times to secure his dog, and each time he refused. He finally asked police to back away while he grabbed Snoopy by the collar and led him to a cage. But instead of putting the dog in the cage, Gonzalez slammed the door shut and released the dog at the officers.

    Snoopy leapt at Officer Michael Sullivan, a 10-year-veteran, and he shot Snoopy midair three times. The dog ran to the backyard, where he was shot one final time because he was still "alive and aggressive," Theriault said.

    Snoopy's body was later taken to Dundee Animal Hospital Dog because he was not wearing rabies tags.

    Gonzalez was cited for having a dog at large, for providing no proof of its rabies inoculation, for not putting tags on Snoopy and for the dog exhibiting aggressive behavior.

    Gonzalez will face the dog citations Aug. 24 at the Elgin Branch Court. He is due in court Aug. 6 in Elgin on the obstruction charge and is now being held on an Immigration and Customs Enforcement warrant as a previously deported felon, Theriault said.

    The department is running an internal review of the shooting to determine whether it was justified. "Any time a weapon is discharged, the case is reviewed," Theriault said.

    Saturday's incident marked the third police pit bull shooting of 2010.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,876
    What's the problem? The dog was shot 3 times, and ceased his attack. As CCW civilians, we shoot to stop a threat, not necessarily to kill.

    There is NO SUCH THING as "stopping power." Put the bullets where they matter (in a vital area), use bullets that will (usually) penetrate 12-15 inches, and repeat as necessary.

    There was no mention in the article you cited about what caliber the officers used.

    I suppose we should all carry a .65 caliber, single shot, black powder, flintlock pistol or three - correct? After all, that .65 caliber ball is BIG...and bigger is better, right?

    Until someone invents a phaser, where are no magic bullets or calibers that will work 100% of the time.

    Sorry - it's hot out, and I'm getting a little grumpy. I just get tired of the "bigger is better" caliber wars, and endless talk about non-existent "stopping power." *sigh* How many times do we need to hear from medical folks that they cannot tell the caliber difference in wound tracks unless they recover the bullet?

    I'll go sit quietly in the corner and make some popcorn now. Here we go again...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, LCP (2), Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30
    CT Lasers

  4. #3
    VIP Member
    Array WHEC724's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    6,448
    Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
    __________________________________
    'Clinging to my guns and religion

  5. #4
    Member Array 9mmPro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    257
    if you doubt the stopping power of the 9mm then buy a .45 acp with flying ashtrays, you cant go wrong with that it is nearly 100 percent effective!
    Bushmaster XM15 E2S Shorty
    Walther P99 .40 S&W
    Romanian WASR GP 10/63
    Remington model 700 30-06
    Savage Model 62 .22lr
    Glock 19 gen 3 TALO

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,093
    Do you really have enough stopping power?
    It's very situation-dependent, isn't it? Johnny might be very aggressive, while Bob might be aggressive plus inured to pain, while Bob's pitbull terrier is aggressive, inured to pain, trained to attack, trained to ignore pain, and hasn't seen all of those Hollywood farces in which the bad guy falls like a rag doll the moment a .45 ACP bullet strikes his hangnail. So, who's to say, until the exact situation arises? I won't know until then.

    What I do know is that there are many criminals stopped, 50yrs ago, 10yrs ago, and now, with a variety of calibers. So long as the given perpetrator is reasonably quickly deterred from continuing his violence upon me and mine, I'll be satisfied. What is it that's going to result in that outcome? Dunno. I believe that my chosen combination of weaponry and tactics will result in that, else I'd change something.

    In the meantime, I read and research, I try various weapons and training, I become as competent and effective with the chosen weapon(s) as I'm able. What I can do, I'll do. The rest is up to karma and the gods.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,449
    Gonzalez will face the dog citations Aug. 24 at the Elgin Branch Court. He is due in court Aug. 6 in Elgin on the obstruction charge and is now being held on an Immigration and Customs Enforcement warrant as a previously deported felon, Theriault said.

    Hmmm....
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  8. #7
    AzB
    AzB is offline
    Senior Member Array AzB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    557
    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    Gonzalez will face the dog citations Aug. 24 at the Elgin Branch Court. He is due in court Aug. 6 in Elgin on the obstruction charge and is now being held on an Immigration and Customs Enforcement warrant as a previously deported felon, Theriault said.

    Hmmm....
    Previously deported felon. Sounds like someone who should not:

    A: Be out of jail
    2: Have ever gotten into this country
    Az

    -- Luck favors the well prepared.

  9. #8
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    1,291
    Stopping power, if it exists more than a general way (like a .45 will stop more people than a .22) is but one influence in an event as complicated as a shooting. So complicated that there is not enough data from actual shootings to study with scientific methods. Distance of the shot, angle, height, entry point and path of the bullet, condition of the specific round, height/weight/physical make-up and condition of the person shot, health of that person - well, you can go on and on and on. Hundreds of variables.

    As far as what most police and many knowledgeable folks have believed has the most effect and what showed tops in collection of results from different calibers in actual shootings: it is .357 Magnum.
    As well, i believe pathology reports, similar to one I read somewhere may show the same ("may" is the word): I read a general report of autopsy of shooting victims by a pathologist or assistant, which that said they could not distinguish from actual wounds which common caliber, --from 9mm, /38 or 45 - were used upon post-mortem examination. Internal wounds looked the same with any of them. EXCEPT, they could tell if it was a .357, which was devastating in its wound results and instantly recognizable.

    I have a Colt Python .357, but too bulky and heavy to carry comfortably, and its valuable, I don't want to muck up the nickel finish - so i rarely carry it. But that round is the one i have most confidence in, not that I'm not comfortable with others. The downside of .357 is the kick that can make it difficult for some to shoot repeatedly with accuracy, the flame and flash at night, and the deafening sound. They do have low-flash .357 though. On the other hand, even if you missed, the flash and sound from being in front of the gun, are so overwhelming that in a couple of reports of misses, BGs fell down anyway even though they had not been hit, in the belief they were mortally wounded, because of the "show" they had witnessed from out front. This also includes a pressure wave which feels - it has been said - like being punched in the chest. The 357 is the only gun I shoot where I can feel the pressure wave - and from BEHIND the gun. It just feels like a VERY powerful gun, more so than any other I have, including two 45s.

    Lastly, in a famous FBI report, whether someone drops or not is very dependent on awareness of being shot, in a human that is. People fall when there is no physical reason to, before a loss of blood is enough to cause it - because they realize they've been shot and behave according to what they believe comes next: falling down. If there is no awareness of being shot, they don't fall until the body needs to - from actual loss of blood. Interesting.

    So shoot what you want from about 380 to 45 in a pistol, 38 to 357 in a revolver, and if you want what MAY be the most likely to stop someone, get a 357 Mag. (Not a good home defense round though in many opinions, as it will likely go thru various walls, and the sound from it being shot inside likely deafen you -- hopefully temporarily).

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    2,319
    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    Being that dog attacks are by far my biggest concern, I read stories like this one and I come to the realization that a little .380 is not even close to being effective. I doubt that 9mm is enough in a real life situation like the following story. These dogs are far more difficult to take down than humans. The officer shot this dog three times mid-air and it was still going strong. I was convinced long ago that bigger IS better. People should carry what will be an effective round to do the job rather than look for a gun that is easier and lighter to carry. Form follows function and convenience should be low on the priority scale. IMO.
    People have survived 12 gauge and 45 acp shots as well, what is your point?
    Glock 19
    Kahr PM9
    LMT-M4
    Mossberg 590
    Shodan, Jujutsu

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array orangevol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Southwest, TN
    Posts
    1,246
    Several years ago a friend and I went wild boar hunting in East TN. I shot a 140 lb boar broadside at about 10 yds with a .44 mag, 240 gr. soft point. His adrenaline was pumping hard while fighting off the 3 dogs we used to contain the hog, but he dropped dead on the spot when the bullet took out both lungs. The massive instantaneous blood loss caused him to drop straight down on his belly.

    Flip side, my buddy took down a massive 500 lb boar with a .50 AE Express and had to shoot him 3 times. After shots 1 & 2 he continued to walk around in a circle, obviously 1 & 2 didn't hit vital organs, but shot 3 blew a hole in his heart the size of a quarter, instantly dropping him.

    Case in point, bigger is not always better, but shot placement is king!
    Proud NRA member

  12. #11
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,840
    But instead of putting the dog in the cage, Gonzalez slammed the door shut and released the dog at the officers.
    That right there makes him the recipient of an good old fashioned automatic whooping. I'd have shot the dog and then drug him out of his house kicking and screaming and at the very least charged him with aggravated assault.
    We don't play that crap here in small town USA.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  13. #12
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    310
    CNS shots and destruction of skeletal structure are usually stoppers. Extreme pain can cause a stop. 9's, 40s, 45s, 357s...none are 1 shot stoppers. Ever see a deer run 300 yards after a lung shot with a 300 WSM? I have.

    I imagine if the dog was shot in the head, the issue of caliber/stopping power would not be an issue.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kommie-fornia-stan
    Posts
    7,046
    Two words: Shot Placement

    All else is
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array boatail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    va.
    Posts
    696
    Stopping power may be a moot point, but the fact that there ARE so many variables is exactly the reason I like a bigger/ heavier bullet. It tends to eliminate some of the variables and although bullet placement reigns supreme..if you're a little off with your shot, I'd rather it be with a .45 vs. a .380. JMO
    Light travels faster than sound...thats why some people appear bright before they speak

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,115
    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    What's the problem? The dog was shot 3 times, and ceased his attack. As CCW civilians, we shoot to stop a threat, not necessarily to kill.

    There is NO SUCH THING as "stopping power." Put the bullets where they matter (in a vital area), use bullets that will (usually) penetrate 12-15 inches, and repeat as necessary.

    There was no mention in the article you cited about what caliber the officers used.

    I suppose we should all carry a .65 caliber, single shot, black powder, flintlock pistol or three - correct? After all, that .65 caliber ball is BIG...and bigger is better, right?

    Until someone invents a phaser, where are no magic bullets or calibers that will work 100% of the time.

    Sorry - it's hot out, and I'm getting a little grumpy. I just get tired of the "bigger is better" caliber wars, and endless talk about non-existent "stopping power." *sigh* How many times do we need to hear from medical folks that they cannot tell the caliber difference in wound tracks unless they recover the bullet?

    I'll go sit quietly in the corner and make some popcorn now. Here we go again...
    I apologize for the misstatement. By "bigger is better" I didn't mean bullet size. What I meant was...more powerful is better. (provided you can control the shot placement). Proper penetration is a good thing. However, shot placement being the same the "wound tracks" from a .380 vs. a 357 are not the same.

    A bullet will destroy or damage any tissues which it penetrates, creating a wound channel. It will also cause nearby tissue to stretch and expand as it passes through tissue. These two effects are typically referred to as 'permanent cavitation' (the hole left by the bullet) and 'temporary cavitation' (the tissue displaced as the bullet passed) also known as a 'stretch cavity'. The football shaped stretch cavity of the .357 Sig is far greater and inflicts much more trauma to the wound area (even though it is a 9mm sized bullet) the additional speed carries more energy and renders a heaver blow to the recipient. It also penetrates deeper than does the .380.

    When hunting I always select the appropriate round for the game I'm looking to take down. In this case I am talking about a pitbull. I would never select a .380 for this application as it's too light to do the job. I'd rather the increased 'stopping power' of 357 any day. I'd rather my .223 but I can't carry that concealed.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Stopping Power
    By mauser1959 in forum Defensive Books, Video & References
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: March 11th, 2010, 07:13 PM
  2. Stopping Power
    By ErikGr7 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: January 8th, 2009, 01:21 AM
  3. Another Stopping Power Question
    By SugarmillMan in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: June 26th, 2008, 05:23 PM
  4. Stopping Power
    By crzy4guns in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: March 31st, 2008, 08:44 PM
  5. Handgun Stopping Power
    By DCJS Instructor in forum Reference & "How To" Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: June 11th, 2007, 07:54 PM

Search tags for this page

.22 stopping power
,
.380 stopping power
,
concealed carry knockdown power
,
does 223 have stopping power
,
does a .380 have stopping power
,
does a 380 have enough stopping power
,
does a 380 have stopping power
,
does the .223 have stopping power
,
does the .380 have stopping power
,

is .380 enough stopping power

,
is 380 enough stopping power
,
will a 380 knock down a pit bull
Click on a term to search for related topics.