Precision shooting with the P250 (video): shooting by Tangle

This is a discussion on Precision shooting with the P250 (video): shooting by Tangle within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is the same thread that I initially titled, "Fun shooting with the P250FS .45ACP & a fun, short video..." . As I thought about ...

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Thread: Precision shooting with the P250 (video): shooting by Tangle

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    Precision shooting with the P250 (video): shooting by Tangle

    This is the same thread that I initially titled, "Fun shooting with the P250FS .45ACP & a fun, short video...". As I thought about it, the first title didn't seem quite descriptive enough, hence the new title.

    I shot this video today at the range. It was a less than average day for me, but that's my own doing. Anyway this is two evolutions that were fun.

    I've done rapid fire on paper, stationary and moving, accuracy tests on paper and I'd had enough of that for a while so I decided to do something fun.

    It's all in the short video, but I'm not sure how clear the audio will be so here's what I did. I stood up three 12 ga shotgun shells 40 feet away along with a bottle and a coke can.

    After shooting them, the second evolution is hitting the can again which is now about 50 feet down range. The bottle is about 60 feet and the shotgun shell is about 50 feet. Here's what happened:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctFLYHW7lc8
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    Senior Member Array tex45acp's Avatar
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    Not bad shooting at all Tangle. I had a SIG P220ST that was incredibly accurate, but like holding a barbell out in front of you......and I am 6'6" 290lbs. Ended up traiding it on a 1911 and never looked back.
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    Damn good shooting, Tangle..!

    I might be able to take you in a Match, but you'd have to be drunk, blindfolded and shooting weak hand.

    Arrggg. Who am I kidding,...You'd still Win..!

    BTW, Great editing sync on the split video pip.
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by los View Post
    Damn good shooting, Tangle..!

    I might be able to take you in a Match, but you'd have to be drunk, blindfolded and shooting weak hand.

    Arrggg. Who am I kidding,...You'd still Win..!
    Thanks los - that's very generous and kind. I bet you're not a bad shot yourself!

    Quote Originally Posted by los View Post
    BTW, Great editing sync on the split video pip.
    Boy, you are observant! Most would have no idea about splits and pips, much less the need to sync them. It is some trouble to get two (I think the most I've done is three) videos sync'd so the audio and motions all match. I bet you're a videographer (is that the correct term)?

    On a side note, I had one video that the audio kept drifting out of sync with the lips. I was muting the distant cam sound track and using the much better sound track from my helmet cam. I think what happened, I unintentionally got my helmet cam on a 29 FPS and my other cam was on the standard 30 FPS. I had to do a lot of splitting and time shifting to adjust.

    But the whole experience made me realize that unless two cameras are exactly on the same time frame, after some period of time there could be drift even when they are both set to the same 30 FPS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    ... Boy, you are observant! Most would have no idea about splits and pips, much less the need to sync them. It is some trouble to get two (I think the most I've done is three) videos sync'd so the audio and motions all match. I bet you're a videographer (is that the correct term)?
    Among the many hats I wore, I was also the chief video /graphics technician at a law firm for 25 years. Multiple simultaneous camera shoots are a lot of fun to edit/sync. I see you're in Chattanooga. I was up there on a mountain a few years ago to conduct an on-site inspection of a well known company that manufactures small engines.

    Beautiful Country up there..!
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    pretty impressive tangle ...
    if i may ask, have you done any sight adjustments , or is the 250 otb ? ( out of the box)
    night sites from sig ?
    combat , or 6:00 hold ?
    and what was your point of aim at 50ft - ie high low - left etc ....

    thx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti View Post
    pretty impressive tangle ...
    if i may ask, have you done any sight adjustments , or is the 250 otb ? ( out of the box)
    night sites from sig ?
    combat , or 6:00 hold ?
    and what was your point of aim at 50ft - ie high low - left etc ....

    thx
    Good questions!

    I've done no sight adjustments; the sights are the Siglites that came on the gun - no changes whatsoever.

    Everything is out of the box stock - no trigger work/packages, etc.

    At 50 feet, I hold the sights dead on the center of the target - that'd be the combat sight picture.
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    First and foremost let me say that is great shooting, but I think for many people the issue with the gun is not the accuracy, but the trigger and what philosophy of use that the gun is intended for. Most people (in a defensive situation) will not have the skill to prime the trigger with a half pull and have that type of time of time to shoot each shot. I don't think the average joe grasps the concept of how well you are using that DAO trigger!
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    Good shooting and nice job on the video too. I do have a side bar question though; Did the trigger smooth out a bit after you put some "miles" on it? I so much want to like the 250, but I could not get over the trigger on the test model I had.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    First and foremost let me say that is great shooting, but I think for many people the issue with the gun is not the accuracy, but the trigger and what philosophy of use that the gun is intended for. Most people (in a defensive situation) will not have the skill to prime the trigger with a half pull and have that type of time of time to shoot each shot. I don't think the average joe grasps the concept of how well you are using that DAO trigger!
    Thanks. Good points, but this was my first step in evaluating the P250. Hence, This phase wasn't about defensive shooting; it was about precision shooting with a stock SD gun to determine the accuracy of the gun itself and what the gun is capable of. The gun is obviously very accurate.

    I will be addressing the rapid fire and SD type shooting soon (I hope, the start of school is approaching rapidly and that does interfere with my fun). I plan to do a video of rapid fire and SD type shooting with both the P250 and DA revolvers.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Good shooting and nice job on the video too. I do have a side bar question though; Did the trigger smooth out a bit after you put some "miles" on it? I so much want to like the 250, but I could not get over the trigger on the test model I had.
    Thanks and thanks!

    I only have 335 rounds through it - I'm not sure if the trigger has changed much or not. I expect it will gradually smooth out more, but it's already pretty smooth. I put 150 rounds through it before I really began to see what it could do. Out of the box, the P250 trigger seems just as good as my 686 revolver trigger did out of the box.

    Is it possible you had one of the gen 1 models and maybe the trigger wasn't so hot on it? I've heard so many guys talk about how smooth the P250 trigger is and I think it is too.
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    Tangle,

    WOW! Can you teach me how to do that?!

    I got to fondle... er... handle a Gen. 2 full size P250 in 9mm today. I have to say that I am impressed with the DAO trigger. I am not much for DAO but have been putting in some range time with a Colt King Cobra lately and have a new appreciation for people that shoot DAO regularly. The P250 trigger that I tried was very smooth with a consistent, and relatively light pull through to the break. I will definitely be considering a combo package(FS and SubC) in 9mm in the near future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmy40 View Post
    Tangle,

    WOW! Can you teach me how to do that?!
    Probably, I can show you the system, then the only difference between you and me is practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvmy40 View Post
    I got to fondle... er... handle a Gen. 2 full size P250 in 9mm today. I have to say that I am impressed with the DAO trigger. I am not much for DAO but have been putting in some range time with a Colt King Cobra lately and have a new appreciation for people that shoot DAO regularly. The P250 trigger that I tried was very smooth with a consistent, and relatively light pull through to the break. I will definitely be considering a combo package(FS and SubC) in 9mm in the near future.
    I concur, very accurate description of the trigger, and I hear those same accolades for the P250 trigger from a lot of guys.

    I'm trying to finish my eval of the P250 I already have but it's all I can do to resist a compact .357 kit.

    I'm also tempted to try to hunt down a "Warmon special" - that guy can find the deals! and just get another complete gun if the price is right.
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    In a way your basically shooting SA since you are priming the DAO trigger by slowly pulling it back to just before the breaking point. I am still on the fence if this is a good habit to do or not... I ended up finding that by just doing normal trigger pulls you get used to the DAO and end up shooting about the same accuracy as priming but more importantly more constant on a day to day basis.

    I view the DAK or DAO or LEM triggers as not target triggers but self defense safety triggers, so I warn others to train with them as you would use them in defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckAZ View Post
    In a way your basically shooting SA since you are priming the DAO trigger by slowly pulling it back to just before the breaking point. I am still on the fence if this is a good habit to do or not... I ended up finding that by just doing normal trigger pulls you get used to the DAO and end up shooting about the same accuracy as priming but more importantly more constant on a day to day basis.
    While I doubt you could get many non-DAO shooters to agree with you that staging a DAO trigger is basically SA, I know what you mean.

    I don't think I'm staging the trigger at all. I try not to in fact. I think what may look like staging is a slow continuous pull rearward. You may notice that on the shotgun shells I pull the trigger slower than I do on the bottle or can, but all are still smooth continuous trigger pulls. If you look at a couple of my evolutions in my revolver video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkFIlpttkq4 ), you'll see that even at 63 yards I'm pulling the trigger pretty quickly. The revo video is probably a little more suggestive of staging because even if you pull the tirgger continuously and smoothly, the cylinder will rotate and then lock in place, even though the trigger is still in motion. That might give the appearance of staging.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckAZ View Post
    I view the DAK or DAO or LEM triggers as not target triggers but self defense safety triggers, so I warn others to train with them as you would use them in defense.
    Absolutely!

    Don't mistake this video to establish the inherent accuracy of a SD gun as a SD method, it isn't. That's why I entitled it "Precision shooting...".

    In support of what you said, I can't resist adding: For SD shooting, I think staging is a very, very bad technique. Staging really comes from target shooting, and perhaps in SD, there could be some situations where we need to make a 'surgical' strike. E.g. if the toes are the only thing disclosed by the BG, then we need to shoot his toes, well assuming he is and has been an ongoing threat of course. But, we need to learn to shoot accurately without staging. Staging could reflect deterimentally in our 'up close', rapid-fire techniques.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Good shooting and nice job on the video too. I do have a side bar question though; Did the trigger smooth out a bit after you put some "miles" on it? I so much want to like the 250, but I could not get over the trigger on the test model I had.
    The P250 that I had was very smooth with regards to the trigger, it's just that I had to do like Tangle and prime the trigger to get good longer distance shots. With in 7 yards or under where most encounters would happen, I was pretty accurate.
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

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