Kahr PM9 Ammo Feed Issue - Page 4

Kahr PM9 Ammo Feed Issue

This is a discussion on Kahr PM9 Ammo Feed Issue within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Philo Betto Not with a PM9, evidently. - You can if you slingshot the slide very forcefully. But a Kahr is definitely ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philo Betto View Post
    Not with a PM9, evidently.
    - You can if you slingshot the slide very forcefully.
    But a Kahr is definitely the wrong gun to own if you are not going to manually rack it forcefully or use the slide stop to chamber the first round.

    Please keep us updated on this. I hope Kahr will makes things right for you.


  2. #47
    Member Array JrFreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirate View Post
    If you don't feel safe carrying a handgun loaded with a round in the chamber you really don't need to be carrying at all.
    So you know what's best for everyone right? As far as I know the 2nd amendment doesn't require chambered carry. If someone doesn't want to carry chambered that is their right, right?
    -Kel-Tec P3AT .380 w/ Crimson Trace Laserguard and Clip Extension (summer carry)
    -Kahr PM9 9mm w/ Crimson Trace Laserguard and Clip Extension (new summer carry)
    -Glock 27 .40 w/ Crimson Trace Laserguard and Clip Extension (winter carry)
    -Taurus PT945 .45 (more or less retired from carry)

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrFreak View Post
    So you know what's best for everyone right? As far as I know the 2nd amendment doesn't require chambered carry. If someone doesn't want to carry chambered that is their right, right?
    - It is their right. But you won't find many people on this site that agree with carrying an unloaded firearm. There have been numerous discussions on this and even a video of a store owner trying to rack the slide of his gun under pressure and failing. IMO, it's wasted time and no matter what kind of firearm you are carrying, you can fail to chamber the round with a poor slingshot. Not to mention that you may not physically be able to rack the slide as you may be on your back or be fending off the attacker with one of your hands, etc.

    If you're not comfortable carrying a loaded firearm, you need to learn better trigger discipline when drawing, get a better holster or buy a gun with a safety.

  4. #49
    Member Array JrFreak's Avatar
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    I understand that most people here support chambered carry, but the argument to not carry at all if you don't is just plain ridiculous.

    I guess the store owner would have been better off not carrying at all? If you are in a situation where you need to pull your weapon in the first place, you probably aren't going to be better off not having it.
    -Kel-Tec P3AT .380 w/ Crimson Trace Laserguard and Clip Extension (summer carry)
    -Kahr PM9 9mm w/ Crimson Trace Laserguard and Clip Extension (new summer carry)
    -Glock 27 .40 w/ Crimson Trace Laserguard and Clip Extension (winter carry)
    -Taurus PT945 .45 (more or less retired from carry)

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrFreak View Post
    I guess the store owner would have been better off not carrying at all? If you are in a situation where you need to pull your weapon in the first place, you probably aren't going to be better off not having it.
    - I think that carrying unchambered puts you in a very bad mindset. First, it puts you in the mindset that you will be quick enough and skilled enough to actually chamber a round under pressure. Second, it's most likely the person has not trained or practiced drawing from various positions. Lastly, it shows that you are not comfortable with carrying a loaded firearm, whether it be for your own safety or others.

    I don't think that there is anything that more training or practice cannot fix.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    A story about carrying unchambered from just a few days ago.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...save-your-life....

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrFreak View Post
    I understand that most people here support chambered carry, but the argument to not carry at all if you don't is just plain ridiculous.

    I guess the store owner would have been better off not carrying at all? If you are in a situation where you need to pull your weapon in the first place, you probably aren't going to be better off not having it.
    What's the difference between being dead because you were unarmed and being dead because you are not competent enough to carry your weapon in a proper state of readiness?

    For anyone still dense enough to think that carrying with an empty chamber is a good idea:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712
    Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.

  8. #53
    Ex Member Array Philo Betto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post
    - I think that carrying unchambered puts you in a very bad mindset. First, it puts you in the mindset that you will be quick enough and skilled enough to actually chamber a round under pressure. Second, it's most likely the person has not trained or practiced drawing from various positions. Lastly, it shows that you are not comfortable with carrying a loaded firearm, whether it be for your own safety or others.

    I don't think that there is anything that more training or practice cannot fix.
    Ya know, I've tried to ignore this because I'm not looking for an argument, but it's irritating in the degree of lack of common sense it represents. It makes no sense, zero! I could make a good case, give my recent FTF issues with my new PM9, that it's a more reckless "mindset" to carry a gun with known issues than it is to not have a round in the chamber. Especially given that some of the PM9 issues happened on the 2nd round, not the 1st. I would think all of these factors trump having a round in the chamber, yet they rarely even come up in a discission vs about chambering the first round:
    1. Good caliber and cartride (JHP vs. FMJ)
    2. Dependable gun.
    3. Well-fitted and accessible holster.
    4. Good aim.
    5. Good shoot vs. no shoot decision-making ability.

    Carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is a LOT safer than not carrying one at all, right? Do you think everyone who doesn't carry is reckless? I could make a jillion good arguments against what you imply, but I'll just make one that maybe you didn't consider. A person who does not have a round in the chamber, but who has quick reflexes, is coordinated, athletic, and pays close and careful attention to his surroundings, is probably a lot safer than a hapless clutz who has a round in the chamber all the time.

    We all have to draw a line where our comfort zone is. I could be safer driving an F-350 instead of my F-250, and even safer yet if I wore a helmet and Nomex gloves every time I drive my pickup to 7-Eleven, but at some point we're talking about overkill if not outright obsession. The guy carrying 3 guns, all with a round in the chamber, will probably get hit by a dumptruck.

  9. #54
    Ex Member Array Philo Betto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    What's the difference between being dead because you were unarmed and being dead because you are not competent enough to carry your weapon in a proper state of readiness?

    For anyone still dense enough to think that carrying with an empty chamber is a good idea:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712
    Oh gee, one anecdotal story disproves my whole theory. How about I offset that one with this one where the DEA agent shoots himself in the foot because he had a round in the chamber: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pf3ID3XQ6o

    I have a tougher case of proving my point because I have no stats to show how many people didn't shoot themselves in the foot because they don't keep a round in the chamber.

    Lets not make this a matter of carrying a round in the chamber being foolhardy, as you're attempting to do for those who choose not to. You wanna carry one in the chamber, fine. But implying that those who don't are unskilled or undertrained , 'dense,' or as reckless as those who don't carry at all, makes you look goofy and extreme.

    I think the CHL test should include about 5 questions to establish common sense...

  10. #55
    Ex Member Array Philo Betto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post
    A story about carrying unchambered from just a few days ago.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...save-your-life....
    Apples and oranges. The article suggested his gun wasn't loaded at all, not that he didn't have a round in the chamber.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philo Betto View Post
    Apples and oranges. The article suggested his gun wasn't loaded at all, not that he didn't have a round in the chamber.
    - I'm going to go out on a limb and say he had a loaded magazine, but not one in the chamber. The only other possibility is that he had a loaded magazine on him and then proceeded to load the gun and then chamber a round. He's lucky that either scenario didn't end up with him seriously injured or dead.

    "Lopez, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled out his pistol to use in self-defense, but there were no bullets in it. After Reyes allegedly shot at Lopez several times, Lopez loaded his gun and fired back, hitting Reyes twice."

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philo Betto View Post
    Ya know, I've tried to ignore this because I'm not looking for an argument, but it's irritating in the degree of lack of common sense it represents.
    - There's nothing wrong with debates as long as they stay civil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philo Betto View Post
    I could make a good case, give my recent FTF issues with my new PM9, that it's a more reckless "mindset" to carry a gun with known issues than it is to not have a round in the chamber. Especially given that some of the PM9 issues happened on the 2nd round, not the 1st.
    - No one is going to argue with you on this issue. I've stated several times in this thread that I would not carry a firearm that I was not comfortable with. If my PM9 didn't work 100% of the time, I would absolutely not carry it. The chambered/unchambered discussion isn't gun specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philo Betto View Post
    We all have to draw a line where our comfort zone is. I could be safer driving an F-350 instead of my F-250, and even safer yet if I wore a helmet and Nomex gloves every time I drive my pickup to 7-Eleven, but at some point we're talking about overkill if not outright obsession. The guy carrying 3 guns, all with a round in the chamber, will probably get hit by a dumptruck.
    - This is the issue we're discussing. Why is someone not comfortable carrying a loaded gun. The only reason I can think of is being afraid of an accidental discharge. If that's the case, training or the correct holster can solve this issue. Here's another question to think about. If you are carrying an unloaded gun, how many times has the trigger been pulled accidently?

  13. #58
    Ex Member Array Philo Betto's Avatar
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    Why is someone not comfortable carrying a loaded gun.
    Either you're misusing the term "loaded gun" or I don't understand the term. To me, loaded means there are rounds in the gun, not necessarily in the chamber. Here are a few articles I found on what constitutes loaded (not culled, they're the first 2 that were Googled):
    "Loaded firearm." A firearm of any kind which has a live shell or cartridge in either the chamber or magazine.

    34 Pa.C.S.A. 2503

    Purdon's Pennsylvania Statutes and Consolidated Statutes Currentness


    Also:
    One of the issues that generate a large amount of confusion is the simple question of what is a "loaded firearm" under California law. Unfortunately, in the recent past many California law enforcement agencies were not current on the state of the law and have spread misinformation on their websites and in their officer training. I want you to be able to take your gun to your office or the range without worrying about running afoul of California law and without any fear that you are improperly transporting it.
    First, the actual definition of "loaded firearm" is found in the California Penal Code 12031 (g):
    "A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended car*tridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm."



    The only reason I can think of is being afraid of an accidental discharge. If that's the case, training or the correct holster can solve this issue.
    I think "reduce" is a better word than solve. The DEA agent who shot himself in the foot in front of the school kids probably has more firearms training than 99% of gun owners. Accidents happen to all of us, I try to mitigate the chances of those accidents having lethal consequences. I have driven over 3 million miles and I still don't think I can't make a mistake and have a wreck. Training only reduces the chances of an accident, it doesn't eliminate them.

    Here's another question to think about. If you are carrying an unloaded gun, how many times has the trigger been pulled accidently?
    That's a good question. I'd say the answer is not many, but nor is it zero. I've read serveral articles on the importance of your holster covering the trigger guard so as to "reduce" the chance of an accidental discharge. The fact that the holster mfg feels a need to address the issue, tells me it happens. My Clint Smith DVDs goes into great detail on the importance of establishing the habit of not having your trigger finger curled toward the trigger when you draw the gun. I don't know why this issue is addressed so often if accidental discharge is something is very rare.

    But back to the topic. A few certainties seem to be inarguable:
    1. A round in the chamber will save time, and give you a better chance of defending yourself.
    2. A round not in the chamber, but in the mag that's in the gun, is the next best thing and definately better than no gun at all.
    3. A gun with no round in the chamber is less likely to be accidentally discharged.
    4. A gun without a round in the chamber is less likely to get its rightful owner shot during a scuffle for the gun.
    5. A scuffle for the gun is less likely with a round in the chamber.

    The point is that there are 10,000 what ifs that give an advantage or disadvantage to a round in the chamber, and until all of them are addressed, ya shouldn't make blanket mistatements like "For anyone still dense enough to think that carrying with an empty chamber is a good idea...," or "If you don't feel safe carrying a handgun loaded with a round in the chamber you really don't need to be carrying at all."

    Now, after having made that impassioned plea for no round in the chamber, I will probably elect to carry my Sig P239 with a round in the chamber. I feel like my Sig gives me some added safety margins that my PM9 does not:
    1. It's a higher quality gun than my PM9 and probably less likely to do something it's not supposed to.
    2. It's a larger gun and thus more deftly controlled than a smaller gun.
    3. The decocked hammer is an added measure, and yet cocking the hammer is faster than racking the slide.
    4. In addition, it has the same "drop safe" features as my PM9.
    5. It will be carried OWB whereas my PM9 is carried IWB, meaning that I don't have to go fishing in my pants for the Sig.

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philo Betto View Post
    Oh gee, one anecdotal story disproves my whole theory. How about I offset that one with this one where the DEA agent shoots himself in the foot because he had a round in the chamber: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pf3ID3XQ6o

    I have a tougher case of proving my point because I have no stats to show how many people didn't shoot themselves in the foot because they don't keep a round in the chamber.

    Lets not make this a matter of carrying a round in the chamber being foolhardy, as you're attempting to do for those who choose not to. You wanna carry one in the chamber, fine. But implying that those who don't are unskilled or undertrained , 'dense,' or as reckless as those who don't carry at all, makes you look goofy and extreme.

    I think the CHL test should include about 5 questions to establish common sense...
    Yeah, we've all seen the DEA agent who was the "only one professional enough." He's just as big a dunce as someone who carries without a round in the chamber. One doesn't negate the other.

    People who ARE trained, and ARE skilled carry with one in the chamber. Period. That is the way that safe, modern firearms are meant to be carried. If you don't trust yourself enough to keep your booger hook off of the bang switch until you need it, I suggest you take up a tamer pursuit than providing for your own defense. Maybe golf? Perhaps the state should ask you why they should issue a CHL to someone who doesn't even trust himself to safely handle a firearm. THAT seems like common sense to me.

    The biggest component of effective self-defense is mindset....and anyone who carries a weapon in a state of non-readiness ain't got it.
    Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.

  15. #60
    Member Array cbroth's Avatar
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    I carry both a PM9 and a G33, the PM9 has over 2000 trouble free rounds. I would bet my life on this gun and do most of the time.
    If your not sure of carrying one in the pipe of a PM9, I don't think a G26 will give you the warm fuzzies.

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