APEX DCAEK installation and measured before and after pulls - it depends...

APEX DCAEK installation and measured before and after pulls - it depends...

This is a discussion on APEX DCAEK installation and measured before and after pulls - it depends... within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Edit: I'm not sure this was clear, so let me be sure. The APEX DCAEK didn't do in my M&P . Others have seen their ...

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  1. #1
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    APEX DCAEK installation and measured before and after pulls - it depends...

    Edit:
    I'm not sure this was clear, so let me be sure. The APEX DCAEK didn't do in my M&P. Others have seen their trigger pull go from 6.5 to about 5 - 5.5 lbs with this kit. As C hawk Glock mentions in his reply, my gun has a light trigger to start with for what ever reason, so I didn't see as much change that others have.

    The trigger on the M&P 9mm could be better. According to APEX's video, stock triggers on the M&P have a trigger pull from 6 - 6.5 lbs. My completely stock M&P 9mmf has a trigger pull right at 5.5 lbs. The lighter pull can be attributed to 'burnishing' of trigger parts by just shooting/dry firing it.

    For me, 5.5 lbs is quite acceptable, hardly worth spending $90 for a DCAEK kit unless it really does something special. My largest objection to the M&P trigger is the deplorable reset. Reset characteristics will mean nothing to some, some may not even be aware of what it is. So, mostly out of curiosity, I spent my $90 for a DCAEK and installed it this morning. I wanted to do this in a progression and measure the impact of each step.

    I started with just the hard sear and trigger spring; I suspect those are gonna contribute the most to the trigger action. Here's the result of that:

    The measured and averaged 'after' showed a reduced trigger pull somewhere between 0.25 and 0.5 lbs. That's about a 7% decrease in pull weight. However, while I had the gun disassembled, I polished the trigger bar ramp that contacts the sear - it needed it too! That may have influenced the 7% decrease as much as anything. So the trigger went from 5.5 lbs to 5-1/8 lbs, again, about 7%.

    The reset is still deplorable. The hard sear and trigger spring did little, if anything, to improve the tactile reset. So the thing that needed the most help, didn't get any help. At least not so far.

    To me, on my gun, the trigger return does seems to have more reset force, i.e. a stronger trigger spring, but the reset 'click' remains essentially the same which makes sense as the reset 'click', like a Glock reset, comes from the lateral spring acton of the trigger bar, not the trigger spring. It also makes sense that the sear, sear plunger, and sear plunger spring cannot help the tactile feel because the actual reset comes when the trigger bar slides off of the side of the sear.

    This reset mechanics explains why/how the RAM improves tactile reset where the DCAEK cannot. The simple operation of the RAM is to put more lateral pressure on the trigger bar so when it slides off the sear, it hits harder. APEX explains the impact of this in their RAM installation video.

    However, the APEX FPB is reshaped and polished; maybe that will reduce some sliding friction, so I installed it next. Measurements revealed no measureable reduced trigger pull weight. Oh, and I polished the trigger bar where it contacts the FPB.

    Trigger reset? Still deplorable. I cannot sense any change in the tactile feel of the trigger, and I now have everything but the plunger and plunger spring installed. But as I've already discussed, the sear, etc. cannot affect reset impact. Tactile reset remains unchanged and is still a non-event.

    I realize not everyone gets the same results, and even APEX admitted to me that since my gun was already at about 5.5 pounds from shooting, not much would be gained. They were exactly right. My trigger measures about 7% lighter and no noticable improvement in tactile reset.

    Unfortunately, my M&P has the thumb safety version of the sear housing even though it does not have the thumb safety. The significance of that is, that I could not install the RAM kit. The RAM kit is designed for the guns with a non-thumb safety type housing.

    Hmmm, which means I could install a thumb safety if I wanted to.
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    An interesting read, thank you Tangle.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    You may have the lightest stock trigger pull of any M&P that I have heard of. Mine went to about 5.5 after the sear install and it was noticeably lighter. Why don't you post this on the M&P forum and see what type of feedback you get?
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    You may have the lightest stock trigger pull of any M&P that I have heard of. Mine went to about 5.5 after the sear install and it was noticeably lighter.
    That's what's supposed to happen.

    I talked to APEX about this before I bought the DCAEK and told him it was already 5.5 lbs. He said that I probably had one of the harder stock sears and that they have seen that before. Plus, don't forget that this is the pull weight after about 2000 rounds, so there was likely some polishing that lowered the pull weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    ...Why don't you post this on the M&P forum and see what type of feedback you get?
    I could I guess, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort. If your M&P is about 6 lbs, the DCAEK should drop it to about 5 - 5.5 lbs, if it's like my M&P and already at 5.5 lbs with the stock setup, you would likely gain very little. Of course if it were a comp gun, the comp kit would lower it more.
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  5. #5
    Member Array Flork's Avatar
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    You could remove the DC Sear spring or the DC Trigger return spring, to reduce the trigger pull too.

    I'm sorry the RAM doesn't work in your gun. We're working on a solution for everybody.

    Scott

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    Flork,
    I know you're working on additional RAM designs; I didn't mean to imply this was your fault at all. If I'd had the non-thumb safety housing, the RAM would have worked. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

    When you say remove the trigger or sear spring, I presume you mean replace the DC trigger and/or DC sear spring wth the stock springs to reduce the trigger pull????

    Actually I have the stock sear spring in my gun, because I lost the sear plunger and spring in my .45 and had to put the DC sear plunger and spring in it. .

    Can you tell me what the difference in spring weights/constants are for the stock and DC springs?
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  7. #7
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    Is the Apex FPB the new part you were talking about in one of your other posts that's supposed to shorten the trigger reset?
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    Is the Apex FPB the new part you were talking about in one of your other posts that's supposed to shorten the trigger reset?
    Oh man, you're asking me to remember something I posted

    But no, the APEX FPB cannot shorten the trigger reset. It can make the trigger pull a bit smoother and lighter though - just to be clear, that's my opinion based on my understanding of the M&P system.

    I am not aware of anything in the DCAEK that would shorten the trigger reset. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying I don't see anything in the design of it that could shorten the trigger reset much, but to be honest I haven't looked at it closely enough compared to the stock sear to be confident about it.

    EDIT:
    I talked to Scott on the phone about this and the stronger trigger spring that comes with the DCAEK will put just a bit more side pressure on the trigger bar. Scott described this as almost an imperceptible effect, but did say that it can vary a bit and some may get a bit more reaction than others. I got little if any on my gun. SHOOT! I forgot to ask him about the reset travel. So I'm gonna remove what I had stated until I confirm what I think.


    The RAM kit enhances the tactile reset by applying additional pressure on the trigger bar so when if falls off the sear tab, it hits harder and hence significantly enhances the tactile response. Again, my opinion, but i see nothing about the APEX DCAEK that would have a significant impact on the tactile response of the trigger. There's just nothing about it that applies pressure to the trigger bar in the right direction. Again, my opinion.
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  9. #9
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    Well, I'm gonna remove this about the RAM installation until I look at my gun tonight.
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  10. #10
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    Just a quick update: I got home from school later than anticipated and had several things to do so I didn't get to look at my M&P. I hope to do that this afternoon/evening.
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  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    I'm interested in this kit but I need to buy a trigger pull gauge first. The trigger on my 45c has lightened up quite a bit since when I bought it. It's possible I could end up in the same boat as you where the trigger only gets lightened like .5 pounds. That's not worth 90 bucks to me lol
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    I'm interested in this kit but I need to buy a trigger pull gauge first. The trigger on my 45c has lightened up quite a bit since when I bought it. It's possible I could end up in the same boat as you where the trigger only gets lightened like .5 pounds. That's not worth 90 bucks to me lol
    Well, you emphasized the exact point of the thread - not everybody is gonna get the same benefits - it depends on where the gun is to start with. Excellent product, I'm not Knocking the DCAEK at all.

    I'm excited about the RAM kit; I do hope I can machine it to work in my M&P configuration. APEX charged me, I think it was, $23 for the RAM kit, I thought that was very reasonable. If my gun had cooperated, I'd already have it installed.
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  13. #13
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    Well, fortunately I confused the .45 sear housing with the 9mm. I was in a hurry when I looked at the RAM and had in my mind the image of the .45 housing. I pulled the 9mm housing out and immediately realized the RAM would install - so I installed it - what a relief.

    How'd it do? Well, it isn't like a Glock reset, but it's pretty close. It is a pronounced snap/click when the trigger resets. I again measured pull weight and it was unchanged and right at 5 lbs. With both the DCAEK and the RAM kit installed the trigger reset looks to be about 3/16" from the trigger stop. A Glock reset is just a bit less.

    But, the real test will be shooting. That's tomorrow afternoon.
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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Well, fortunately I confused the .45 sear housing with the 9mm. I was in a hurry when I looked at the RAM and had in my mind the image of the .45 housing. I pulled the 9mm housing out and immediately realized the RAM would install - so I installed it - what a relief.

    How'd it do? Well, it isn't like a Glock reset, but it's pretty close. It is a pronounced snap/click when the trigger resets. I again measured pull weight and it was unchanged and right at 5 lbs. With both the DCAEK and the RAM kit installed the trigger reset looks to be about 3/16" from the trigger stop. A Glock reset is just a bit less.

    But, the real test will be shooting. That's tomorrow afternoon.
    How much shorter is the reset now? 20 percent, 30 percent, etc?
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    How much shorter is the reset now? 20 percent, 30 percent, etc?
    You would ask that - would you believe I didn't measure the stock reset travel .

    I did talk to flork (aka Scott) at Apex. They do claim the DCAEK shortens the trigger reset, I just don't know how much. The engineer in me will never rest until I measure it both ways.

    I'm gonna have to figure out how to get a good repeatable measurement and then measure with the stock parts and the Apex parts. Maybe Thursday night; I have a night class tomorrow night and I did a tree climb tonight so I'm gonna rest the rest of the evening. Can't wait to see how the stock and Apex compare.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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