Trigger characteristics and what they mean in a SD gun... - Page 3

Trigger characteristics and what they mean in a SD gun...

This is a discussion on Trigger characteristics and what they mean in a SD gun... within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I like the definition of 'tactile reset' I prefer the reset of my Glock over the M&P and XD. I used to say that it ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I like the definition of 'tactile reset'

    I prefer the reset of my Glock over the M&P and XD. I used to say that it was because of a shorter reset, but I realize now that it's because of that in conjunction with the tactile reset.

    What limited training that I have, I've done primarily with 1911 and Glock. I believe that there is a similarity between the tactile resets of the two platforms.

    When I tried the XD, and more especially the M&P, I was back on target ready for the second trigger press but couldn't find that tactile reset as quickly as on a Glock or 1911.

    I suppose it wouldn't matter, if you only trained with one pistol platform.

    Additionally, as a personal theory, short-fingered people like myself benefit greatly from a shorter reset, than those with longer fingers. It's a lot of work to make a long trigger reset and pull with munchkin hands
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    I like the definition of 'tactile reset'

    I prefer the reset of my Glock over the M&P and XD. I used to say that it was because of a shorter reset, but I realize now that it's because of that in conjunction with the tactile reset.
    That's me exactly zacii. I know exactly what you're talking about.
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  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Great thread.

  4. #34
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    Tangle, great info on triggers..... Do you have any insight as to how lowering the trigger pull on certain handguns might affect the lock time?
    It is my understanding that most striker fired pistols cock the striker spring with the trigger pull; therefore if the trigger pull is eased with lighter striker springs does that extend the lock time?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gig View Post
    Tangle, great info on triggers..... Do you have any insight as to how lowering the trigger pull on certain handguns might affect the lock time?
    It is my understanding that most striker fired pistols cock the striker spring with the trigger pull; therefore if the trigger pull is eased with lighter striker springs does that extend the lock time?
    Boy, talk about slow to respond - I'm makin' molasses look fast. Sorry to be so slow - however....

    Let's start with what lock time is JIC there's any question in anyone's mind. Lock time is the time starting with release of the sear until hammer/striker ignites the primer. Seems kind of a strange name to me for what it means, but that's what it means. Lock time will depend on design specifics. Some trigger pulls can be lowered without affecting lock times. An example is the Glock. The trigger pull weight is modified by the angle of the connector lip on the connector. The trigger spring and striker spring weights are not changed, so lock times should be close to the same. However, because of the angle of the lighter connector, the trigger will have to be pulled slightly more rearward which would pull the striker further rearward slightly. It would seem any further rearward movement of the striker would increase the distance the striker has to travel to strike the primer thereby increasing travel time, but an offsetting consideration would be the striker spring also is compressed slightly more which would produce more force, so the two may wash out and not cause any change in lock time.

    I'm not aware that 'most' striker fired guns cock the striker spring with the trigger pull. The Glock trigger finishes cocking the striker and is hence considered a DAO, where as the XD and M&P have fully cocked strikers (via the slide cycle) held by a sear and the trigger only releases the striker and are hence SAO guns.

    But yes, generally a reduced power striker spring would produce a slower lock time simply because there is less force to accelerate the striker. But, if a steel striker were replaced with a Titanium striker with a reduced power striker spring, the lock time could actually decrease depending on how much lighter the striker and spring were. But then, because the spring has less stored energy and the Ti striker has less mass, momentum of the striker would be reduced which could lead to lighter primer strikes.

    Then, having said all that, we're talking about shaving off milli-seconds of lock time. Not sure there would be a measurable advantage in accuracy. Ultimate accuracy is generally the goal for reducing lock time. However in some guns, along with reduced lock time comes reduced trigger pull weights - that might be more significant than lock time.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Boy, talk about slow to respond - I'm makin' molasses look fast. Sorry to be so slow - however....
    no problem,,,

    Let's start with what lock time is JIC there's any question in anyone's mind. Lock time is the time starting with when the sear releases the hammer/striker and the ignition of the primer. Seems kind of a strange name to me for what it means, but that's what it means.
    The name may have origins during the flint-lock times.

    Hey thanks for the rest of the info.
    Do you have an opinion of lock time between striker fire and hammer fire pistols like a 1911 or H&K?
    Which type has the fastest lock time, or is there just as much difference within the types?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gig View Post
    ,,,The name may have origins during the flint-lock times.
    Yep, pretty sure that's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by gig View Post
    ,,,Do you have an opinion of lock time between striker fire and hammer fire pistols like a 1911 or H&K?
    Which type has the fastest lock time, or is there just as much difference within the types?
    I really don't know the answer to that. I know that the skeleton type hammers so popular in 1911s are to reduce lock time, but I'm not so sure that most of us could actually take advantage of the slight difference - again we're talking milliseconds of difference.

    I would think, again emphasis on think, that striker fired guns would have a slightly faster lock time than hammer fired simply because of the lower mass of the striker, but one would have to measure lock time on each gun of interest to know for sure.

    Lock times are probably more significant in precision shooting than in SD type shooting. Worrying about lock time in a SD gun is pretty low on the list of things that make a SD accurate and shootable.
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  8. #38
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    The lock time on a 1911 can be noticeably reduced by going with a one of the super light skeletonized Tool Steel hammers....adding a titanium hammer strut as well as a titanium mainspring cap.
    Some folks also switch out the steel firing pin for a Titanium firing pin but, I was never too crazy about a lightweight firing pin and so I stick with steel...usually a high quality Stainless because it's so tough and tenacious.

    Sooo...(slightly off topic) you "speed up" the lock time by installing the lighter hammer parts and (Hint Hint) slightly delay the rearward slide movement by adding a EGW (Evolution Gun Works) "squared off bottom" firing pin stop....which amazingly does lessen felt recoil a wee bit and installing that FP Stop also slightly decreases muzzle rise and twist.
    A very nice plus for a grand total of a $15.00 investment for the custom FP stop.

  9. #39
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    VERY enlightening! Being rather new to handguns, I found this to be just what I need to become more informed and, maybe, a little wiser where my guns are concerned. Manu thanks.
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  10. #40
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    All this talk about titanium parts and lock times and sear releases, etc. have no bearing on a self-defense firearm. In a real face to face gunfight, you will be under such enormous stress that your brain will essentially shut down and you will function on reflexes. You will not be aware of any subtleties in your trigger pull - weight, travel, lock time, etc. You will grab your gun, thrust it towards the target and rapidly pull the trigger several times. Period. That is, if you've trained that way. This is one BIG difference between actual self defense use and shooting IPSC or Steel Challenge, where trigger characteristics can be very significant. The ONLY possibly noticeable aspect of trigger pull in a defense situation is that a single-action pull can usually be operated a little faster than a double-action pull, say 5 or 6 shots per second, as opposed to 3 or 4 shots per second. A self defense situation is not like shooting at a paper target.

  11. #41
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    This thread is entitled, and about "Trigger characteristics and what they mean in a SD gun..."

    A lot of members compete with their SD gun and may find something that would be useful to them.

    Plus, one can do anything with a really good trigger that he can with a really bad trigger and even more.

    Trigger characteristics are certainly a part of many elite LE departments, etc. such as SWAT, etc. A number of prominient SWAT teams use 1911s partly because of what they consider to be a superior trigger design and characteristic. I'm not saying it is superior, but rather they believe it is.
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  12. #42
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    Very informative post. I've got a Ruger LC9 with a really long trigger pull along with a lotta free play. I'm trying to decide if I wanna mess with modifying the trigger bar and adding a new hammer to refine all that.

  13. #43
    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    I have a S&W 99 in 45 that has the best trigger on a stock semi auto pistol I 've ever owned.Yes it'd a DA/SA the first shot has the long pull at around 6.5 pounds and the short pull set on the shade of hair at between 2.5-3 pounds so it
    takes some getting use to.I am still surprised that this pistol didn't take off with law enforcement as when you compare it to the MP it's made alot better in my humble opinion and it's got some German blood in it which helps too.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array jblives2ride's Avatar
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    Great post, I've been thinking of getting a ghost trigger in my glock but haven't done it your post may push me to order...just sworried about doing the modification myself
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblives2ride View Post
    Great post, I've been thinking of getting a ghost trigger in my glock but haven't done it your post may push me to order...just sworried about doing the modification myself
    It's not hard to do; I doubt you'll have any problem doing it. I don't know if you've seen this, but I now have a video that explains how, even how to take the gun apart:



    The video actually covers the drop in connectors and the connectors with the TCT (Trigger Control Tab). You can use it to install either a Rocket or Tactical connector depending on which connector weight you want.
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