Like Guantes, I also pull out the "slack" during the draw stroke, by the time I'm on target, it's virtually a SA trigger. (As Guantes also stated)
Like Guantes, I also pull out the "slack" during the draw stroke, by the time I'm on target, it's virtually a SA trigger. (As Guantes also stated)
There is no advantage whatsoever to this system or method over a Glock DAO or M&P SAO gun. The Glock and M&P have lighter, shorter trigger pulls every shot than the DA/SA, the Glock has a much better reset characteristic and pretty comparable triggers to the SA of a DA/SA. They have no manual safeties or decockers, no thumb cocking, no choosing between trigger modes. A long range shot is performed with the same trigger as one out of the holster. The trigger can be preped as the gun extends toward the threat the same as a DA/SA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guantes
I am fully aware of the extension fire method. I used this very method in a Blackwater Level II Handgun course with DA/SA Beretta 92fs. We were timed on 5 draw and fires from 7 yards. I had gamers in the class with Glocks with 3.5 lb connectors and kydex holsters. None of them could beat my draw time with my five DA mode shots, and all my shots were in the A zone. I used the trigger prep during extension method. But, I'm measurably faster with a Glock when I use the same method with it.
I can be convinced that with enough training one can become proficient with a DA/SA trigger, I am quite proficient with them in fact. But it remains that most are gonna have more problems learning the DA/SA trigger, and it's going to take longer than learning the trigger on a Glock or M&P.
I used to visualize every where I was, if I had to draw quickly and make a head shot, the first shot, with no delay could I do it? As much as I shoot, about 100 rounds per week, sometimes 200 rounds per week, I began to loose confidence in my ability under stress to work that long, heavy DA trigger on my DA/SA gun efficiently enough to make such a shot. The logic is, if my trigger action forces me to use a heavy, nearly 11 lb, long trigger pull, is that really what I want to depend on? Gradually I conceded that I'd have a better chance making that first out of the holster draw and fire shot with a Glock or M&P. I believe anybody would do better with the Glock or M&P. Not because the Glock or M&P is a better quality gun, but for the very reason you point out - with a Glock or M&P, all your shots are essentially SA with no hammer manipulation and significantly less trigger prep.
If you can do this honestly, I think you'll come to the same conclusion I have. Get yourself a timer. Practice timed draw and fire head shots at 5 yards. Then shoot a Glock with a 3.5 lb Ghost connector until you are as proficient with it as the DA/SA, you may be surprised how quickly that happens. Then do the timed head shots again.
How many times have we heard people claim they shoot a SA better than DA? Why not have a SA-like all the time? Now that's really hard for me to admit because right now I'm carrying a P250. But, I'm finding that slight bit of longer trigger pull is more than compensated for by the lightness of the trigger. I've also found that a lighter DAO trigger is significantly easiier to shoot than a much heavier DA trigger. I also noticed that in my revolvers too. It remains to be seen if I'll be able to match a Glock or M&P from the draw, but I will be timing that sort of thing to see how they stack up.
The thumb safety - decocker just transfers a potential problem from the beginning to the end. If one misses the safety, then he may get shot. Then at the end, if one forgets to decock before he holsters, he may get shot or shoot some else unintentionally.
It is absolutely true that with enough training and practice one can master and maintain the DA/SA trigger. But one can do anything with a Glock or M&P that they could with any DA/SA and with less training and without the safety or decocker to contend with.
Its all good. It was not my intent to disagree with anything that you said, merely to describe what, how and why I do it. I agree that for the average person the type of actions you prefer would be easier to learn and maintain. I prefer what I do and how I do it. For one thing, not to start another discussion just a point of information, I don't like striker fired guns and don't own any. I prefer hammers and I doubt that, that will change at this stage of life.
I can't stand the Glock trigger "safety". I shoot them poorly because of it. I've been told to train with them, and have done so. I can't get over the nasty feeling of the trigger "safety". I don't shoot any faster with them, and am less accurate with the Glock than I am with my Sig in DA shot.
One small clarification. I am not talking about trigger prep during extention. I am talking about "trigger prep" or partial depression during the draw and the shot is made as soon as the muzzle comes on line at half hip, with no extention.
Same principle; but we'd have to admit that that is an action that would not be necessary with a Glock, XD, or M&P. In fact, if you were to take a class from Brownie, Integrated Threat Focused Shooting, you would be doing drawing and shooting at half hip. I did it with the Beretta 92fs DA/SA and PX4 DA/SA, and Brownie does the same draw and fire from the hip with his Glock.
But few people could do that at even five yards and get a COM hit; most would have get the gun up to eye level and extend, preping the DA or DAO trigger as they extend and breaking the shot just as they reach full extension or before if the situation calls for it. Kelly McCann addresses this very issue of trigger prep and for shots near the 5 yard mark he teaches trigger prep on a Beretta 92fs durning extension to one of his students in his video. The guys with Glocks, XDs, and M&Ps didn't have to do that.
Brownie and I are friends and have gotten together on more than one occasion, he will vouch for my shooting. I do both com and head shots from the draw, no extention, from five yards.
Brownie will vouch for my shooting too. I'm sure you're proficient with the DA/SA, but my statement was most people aren't and find the DA/SA more difficult than probably any other action. So my critisizm of the DA/SA trigger is not because no one can shoot it well, I shoot a DA/SA very well, but rather because it's a poor overall concept, and just because it can be mastered with enough work, doesn't improve the design.
Cammo girl for example stated that she tried the DA/SA trigger on several guns and the DA was too heavy. So she went with the DAK. But I'm open to thoughts about the subject, what's good about a DA/SA trigger system?
On a closing note, I believe that I have already agreed with your point that for the average person, there are advantages to other systems.
Actually, I was meaning what is the advantages to you? Preping the trigger isn't an advantage, it's a compensation. Keeping the gun in SA as much of the time as possible isn't an advantage, it's a workaround. Numerous guns provide SA without DA, decockers, or thumb safeties.. The heavy DA trigger is not an advantage; the SA trigger is nice but a Glock with a 3.5 connector is as good on the break and has a shorter, more distinct reset. Especially the M&P with a DCAEK and RAM kit is as good as the SA pull, has a more forceful reset and likely more distinct, and probably cost no more than a Sig DA/SA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guantes
I don't mean to pick, but I simply don't see the purpose of a DA/SA system. Now, having said that, for you, for me, for others that are ingrained with the DA/SA, it's fine and not going to let us down. In fact, you may not be able to ever achieve the same performance with any other action. But as far as the design itself goes, I find it lacking in comparison with other actions. I'm sorry if I implied no one could master the DA/SA, that wasn't intended if it came across that way.
No problem, my feathers don't ruffle easily. The advantages to me are not mechanical, they are comfort, experience and proficiency.
Have handled and shot some of each - In all cases there were some DAO's, some DA/SA's, DAK's I liked and some I didn't like. Some i was accurate with and some i never could manage. I couldn't hit the side of a barn with my Beretta 96 when i got it - Could barely pull the trigger in DOA. Had to cough up a trigger job for it now it's my favorite shooter. But it would be dangerous at some one's head in SA. BG's breath might set it off. DAO was my least favorite until i got my Kahr - After a couple of hundred rounds - I really like that trigger! Hated my LCP trigger so much i sold it 45 days after I bought it. Tried the 738 out in the store today - really liked the trigger on it - not sure but it appears to be DAK or similar - hope when mine gets here tomorrow it feels like the tester. My favorite DA/SA out of the box thus far is my CZ. Have seen some reviews saying the triggers are a little grainy but i found mine to be butter smooth - good weight - DA and SA after only 50 rounds. Now with 300 rds - a true pleasure to shoot Right up there with the Beretta. The DA/SA poses no problems for me on my guns - but some i have tried the DA and SA were so different that it wa.s a struggle - some DAO's i've tried were also a struggle if the pull was to long or to heavy--Just depends on the particular gun to me.
My agency only allowed DAO. I had my SIG 229 converted because I still distrust Berettas. But since I carried a revolver for so many years, the DAO thing never bothered me. For the same reason, DA/SA didn't affect me, but I also trained A LOT. I agree, decockers require more time to master and I was on the line when a "shooter" ventilated his backside because he forgot to decock and then put his finger on the trigger coming out of the holster. I don't believe the DA/SA is the best system for the casual shooter. Shooting on the range and putting away an empty gun do not ingrain the necessary habits to decock after every evolution.
I know this will earn me a lot of booing and jeering, but here goes.
I think DA/SA is the better type of action out there. In a high pressure situation, you always have a first shot without having to think about it. If you miss, your next shots are in 4-lbs single action - and if you can't hit something in single action you have no business owning a gun. Besides, what type of system does the military use most?
I can respect that people use whatever they are comfortable shooting and carrying, so I have nothing against DAK/LEM, DAO, SAO, etc. I just don't get the negative comments about DA/SA. I really don't see how this is inferior to a DAO or SAO or DAK/LEM.
Let's look at the facts: on the DAO system you are limited to a long trigger pull and a long reset. No matter how much you shoot the gun at the range, when it comes time to defend your life, it's not the same. Your hands are probably shaking and the last thing on your mind is going to be "maintain sight alignment" over the 2 inches it takes for the trigger to break. Why wouldn't you rather have a light trigger and quick reset for easier, more accurate follow-up shots?
Now let's look at a SAO system. Light trigger pull, quick reset. However, with SAO you will have to remember to cock your weapon before you shoot it. How is this better than having a DA first shot? At least the gun will work if you forget to cock it. Ok, so if you don't want to worry about this, you can carry your SAO gun cocked and with the safety on. Of course, having the safety means the gun is safe, right? I mean, that's what the word says... but if you flick that safety off by mistake and don't realize it, you could be in for a world of hurt. Depending on the gun, the safety can very easily move to FIRE with the slightest touch. To me this is more stuff to worry about and more that can go wrong than with a decocker. Not that a safety switch is bad - I think it's a good thing on any gun - but depending on it alone leaves a small margin for error.
Now for DAK/LEM/Glock Safe Action, whatever. It's really just a shorter, lighter double action, and shooting it is a good compromise between a long DAO and short SAO . Arguably the easiest to learn, but I personally know two cops who've shot themselves in the thigh with Glocks while reholstering. No further comments here.
To me DA/SA has the best of both worlds. Always a first shot that is very unlikely to discharge accidentaly, easier follow-up shots, and no need to put all your money on a safety switch. And as far as getting used to the change in trigger pull, I just don't get what the big deal is. A lot of people have more than one gun, including Glocks, DAO revolvers and SAO 1911's. I don't know about everyone here, but I like shooting all of them, and I have no problem switching from one to another.
Again, use whatever you feel comfortable with, but I think DA/SA gets a bad rep for no good reason.
How is the Glock Safe Action and Springfield XD different from a 1911 cocked without the safety? Not asking about the mechanical differences, but what are the real safety differences?
I assume a Glock or Springfield XD trigger/safety is just like a 1911 without a safety.
If Glock Safe Action = Springfield XD = 1911 SA....why not carry a 1911 cocked and not locked?
Jake