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SA, DA, DAO, DAK, SAO, Safe-Action, Ultra-Safe, LEM, SRT, mag safeties – huh?

103K views 111 replies 43 participants last post by  ctr 
#1 ·
The shooting community is blessed (or would that be cursed?) with acronyms. Unfortunately, these acronyms bandied about have great implication about the nature of the trigger in a gun. The trigger ‘train’ is commonly referred to as the ‘action’. Some are the same thing with a different name, some seem to work just alike and are considered a different action.

If it were just terminology, there wouldn’t be a problem, but unfortunately, the acronymic descriptors loosely define what we can expect from the ‘action’. You’ll see why I say loosely pretty quickly.

Like my thread about trigger characteristics, this addresses SD (self-defense) guns, not gaming guns, although in the case of action types it doesn’t matter if it’s a SD gun or a competition gun. Let’s start where it starts, with the SA (Single Action).

SA – Single Action and SAO – Single Action Only:
In the beginning,……….well, let’s at least jump ahead to the SA revolver. A SA revolver was an early ‘repeater’, i.e. could fire a number of shots, before needing to be reloaded. The SA revolver has a trigger and a hammer. I realize some of this may seem trivial but it is nonetheless essential in understanding more ‘complicated’ SA guns.

First let’s clear this up: SA and SAO mean the same thing. SAO may better emphasize that this is the only way a gun can be shot, but that is also at least implied by SA.

To shoot the SA revolver, one would cock the hammer manually, which would rotate a fresh round under the hammer, and then when the person was ready to shoot, he would pull the trigger to ‘drop’ the hammer. The trigger only did one thing, release the hammer, hence the term Single Action. So the defining feature of the SA is - the trigger does one thing, drop the hammer. The gun fires and remains inert unless the hammer is manually cocked again.

Sticking with SA, let’s move to semi-autos. The trigger in a semi-auto can and only does one thing - guess what? Drop the hammer. In the revolver, the hammer had to be cocked by hand prior to each shot. In the semi-auto, the recoiling slide cocks the hammer after every shot, and unlike the revolver, the semi-auto leaves the hammer always cocked and ready to fire. Since SA triggers tend to have relatively short trigger pulls, something would have to be done to make the gun secure. This can be accomplished two ways. One, the hammer can be lowered carefully by hand, which some consider dangerous since if the hammer slips, it fires the gun and two a safety can be engaged which blocks the trigger from firing the gun.

So how does one carry a SA semi? Well, most commonly in what’s known as ‘cocked and locked’. For the semi-auto handgun, this means there is a round in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, likely from ‘charging’ the chamber, and the safety is engaged. It would be assumed that a full magazine is in the gun.

BTW, it is a magazine not a clip. A clip is, as the name implies, a clip that holds bullets together for insertion into the magazine of a gun. A magazine holds the rounds and feeds them into the action. Probably the most well known clip is that of the Garand rifle. The Garand rifle has a non-removable magazine that is ‘charged’ or loaded via a clip.

Anyway, we got to a cocked and locked SA handgun so how does one fire the cocked and locked SA. Generally, the thumb of the gun hand swipes off the safety which enables the trigger to fire the gun.

Some examples of SA guns are the 1911, Browning High Power, and a much more modern design the Hk USP. The latter isn’t limited to SA and the cocked and locked mode, and can be carried and fired as a DA/SA with a decocker, more about this unique gun later.

The addition of the safety on the SA adds a complication to the user. He must manually apply the safety when he no longer intends to shoot the gun. Under stress he may not remember to engage the safety. Worse, a casual user, may not remember to disengage the safety in a life and death situation.

With training/practice (they are not the same) the safety disengagement and re-engagement can become second nature. Although, even with seasoned shooters, I have seen them miss the safety on a draw and fire and seen them holster with the gun cocked with the safety off. Ok, some examples of SA guns:

First and foremost the most popular gun in the world, the 1911 is a SA only gun with a thumb safety to make it safe while loaded and cocked. It has a very short, light trigger with a pull weight of anything from 4 lbs to probably 6 lbs.

Then a couple of not-so-obvious SAO guns – the Springfield Armory XD and the S&W M&P, and there are others, they all are unique in some way, yet alike in function of the action. You’ll see later on that a Glock is a bit different than the XD and M&P. The XD action is called the Ultra-Safe; the M&P action doesn’t have a trade name.

BTW, I couldn’t get the S&W website, but Bud’s list the M&P as a DAO. I know this is gonna sound awfully bold, but it is not DAO, it is SAO. When the slide is racked and released on an M&P, as the slide returns forward, the tab (or sear) on the striker which is housed in the slide, is stopped by the sear in the housing. The sear in the housing is mounted on a pivot and cannot move other than pivot very slightly. Sooooo, the striker spring is fully cocked when the slide goes forward. When the trigger is pulled the sear is rotated downward which releases the striker under the force of the striker spring. How many things does the trigger do? Just one, release the striker, hence it is SAO.

The XD works the same way but with a bit different implementation.

So if the 1911 is a SA and it has a thumb safety, what about the M&P and XD? Well, they are SAO, but they have two things different, much, much longer trigger pull and a bit heavier too. Also the XD has a grip safety similar to a 1911. The M&P can be purchased with a thumb safety, it seems most people prefer the M&P without the thumb safety.

DA – Double Action
The DA revolver was the next development in revolvers. Guess why it’s called Double Action? The trigger does two things. It does everything the hammer did on the SA revolver, plus it drops the hammer. So, on a DA, the trigger actually rotates the cylinder, cocks the hammer, and releases the hammer in one stroke of the trigger! That sounds like a triple action doesn’t it? But, there’s more!

The DA revolver can be fired in a SA mode as well, just by manually cocking the hammer! SA mode always has a relatively light, short trigger stroke that many prefer over the long, heavy DA trigger. In the DA mode, the trigger has to rotate the cylinder and cock the hammer against a pretty strong hammer spring – all that makes the trigger heavy. But if you manually cock the hammer, all the trigger has to do is release the hammer. The trigger pull weight in DA mode is typically around 10 - 12 lbs, that’s pretty heavy but manageable. It helps a lot if the trigger is smooth. A buttery smooth trigger can make a heavy trigger feel lighter. In SA mode a revolver trigger has a pull weight of something like 4.5 lbs, which is pretty light. Clear to see why people would shoot better with the SA than the DA. Once the DA trigger is mastered however, one can do some impressive things with it.

Really, it would probably be more accurate to refer to this type of action as a DA/SA or a SA/DA, clearly indicating that the gun can be fired in two modes. But as far as I know the DA revolver has never been referred to as a DA/SA or a SA/DA. That brings us to the DAO.

DAO – Double Action Only
A DAO gun, be it semi or revolver is a gun that can only be fired in double action mode. For example, if you were to machine the hammer spur off of a DA revolver, you wouldn’t be able to manually cock it and you’d have a double action only mode.

If the DAO retains the long, heavy trigger pull, why would anyone want a DAO. Well it may not be as bad as I’ve made it sound. In the early days of Bullseye shooting, revolvers were used and they were fired in the DA mode. The idea here was that the DA mode releases the hammer and hence it has a shorter distance to fall to strike the primer. In SA mode, the hammer cocks in the SA sear and is considerably further back than the release point of the DA mode. Purportedly, there was less time and hammer motion to disturb the sight picture with the DA mode – at least that’s the way it was explained to me.

Further there were a lot of lawmen that were very fast with a DA revolver firing it in the DA mode. Perhaps the most spectacular was an FBI agent named Jelly Bryce. He could draw and fire his DA revolver in two-fifths of a second! And there were many others as well.

But again, if a DA will fire both ways, why not just fire it in DA if you like the DA mode? Well, there are a couple of problems. One, if a DA can be cocked, it’s gonna wind up cocked some how. One example of the problem was reported by Massod Ayoob. An officer was holding a suspect at gunpoint with a DA revolver in the SA mode. IOW, the hammer was cocked. Unfortunately, we humans suffer from sympathetic limb reflex or whatever it’s called. What it means is that if you do something with one hand, the other hand is affected. The officer clamped down on the cuffs, had a sympathetic reaction that fired his gun. Not good! As a result, a lot of PDs had all revolvers converted to DAO which is much, much more resistant to that type of thing.

Then, if you cock a DA revolver and don’t shoot it, how do you ‘uncock’ it? Well, you have no choice but to hold the hammer and pull the trigger, and carefully lower the hammer on a live round. The DAO avoids all the complications of safeties, decockers, cocked revolvers, and is very resistant to sympathetic reaction.

Lastly, if you were in a SD shooting, DAO eliminates any possibility of holding a gun on someone with a cocked hammer. Just think about that! In SA all it might take is a good startle and BANG! Second, let’s say you get through holding the cocked gun, now what are you going to do with it? It’s cocked. How do you uncock this thing in public? Wait till you get home? How you gonna carry it home? In the glove box? Cocked and holstered with the barrel pointed at your leg?

The DAO, be it revolver or semi-auto avoids these potential problems completely. There’s another advantage to the DAO too. All trigger pulls are exactly the same unlike some guns that we’ll discuss shortly.

The truly big asset to DAO guns is shear simplicity. They are the ultimate point and shoot, holster safely – whatever. Next some of DAO guns, some unique DAO mechanisms and the way they’re sometimes disguised.

DAO revolvers typically have no hammer spur, or the hammer is enclosed and completely inaccessible by the user. A number of manufacturers make DAO semi-autos, sometimes they are cleverly disguised but we’ll try to undisguise them.

Sig 226, 229, 228, and sigpros can be converted to DAO, I know because I’ve done that. Sigs 226, 229s are almost exclusively configured as DA/SA which I’ll denigrate shortly or as a DAK.

The Beretta 92FS are most commonly available as DA/SA but a DAO model, the D model is available. The Beretta PX4 is available in a DAO, but again most commonly configured as a DA/SA.

The Sig 226 and 229 is available in a DAK trigger configuration that is proprietary to Sig. DAK stands for Double Action Kellerman; Kellerman designed the trigger and the DAK trigger deserves a few words.

First the Sig 229 DAK won a huge government contract after prevailing handily in the ICE (Immigration Customs Enforcement – I think that’s the right name) trials. The DAK is more than just a DAO trigger – it is actually two in one. It has two double action modes, a long, light mode and a shorter, heavier mode. Why anyone would want something like that is beyond me – wait I have a 226 and a 229 with DAK triggers – well then I ought to know! One redeeming feature, perhaps, of the two-mode DAK trigger is that if you were to short stroke it, you might still get the shorter, heavier mode. That’d be a whole lot better than a complete short stroke.

A huge difference in the DAK trigger than say a revolver DAO trigger is two things: one it has just a wee bit shorter pull and a whole lot lighter pull, (can you say 50% lighter) than the typical revolver DAO or DA mode or the DA mode of a DA/SA trigger. The hammer that comes on a DAK version of the Sig 226 or 229 is bobbed, i.e. has no hammer spur and of course cannot be manually cocked.

The new kid on the block the Sig P250. The P250 is a true DAO semi-automatic, i.e. it was designed to only be a DAO. Obviously the design goal was to essentially put a DAO revolver-like trigger in a semi-automatic gun. There is one huge exception: it is far lighter and smoother out of the box than any DA revolver and the DAK versions although the DAK has a tiny bit shorter pull.

Now for some cleverly disguised DAOs as promised. First, the earliest and probably most debated is the Glock Safe Action. Safe Action is mostly a trade name, rather than a true action description. The trigger action of the Glock is often debated with the appearance of great authority. And it probably is debatable; I’ll explain how it works and you can decide for yourself. First, I’ll just note that the IDPA allows the Glock in the Stock Service Pistol category where DA/SAs and DAOs compete. OTOH, the XD and M&P are not allowed to compete in this category. The difference? The classification of the Glock trigger based on operation. Here’s how it works:

A Glock is a striker fired gun. That means it has a firing pin called a striker instead of a hammer. The striker, housed in the slide, has a tab, we could call a sear, that engages a crude sear on the trigger bar which is housed in the frame. The trigger, also housed in the frame, has a spring that pulls the trigger rearward, that’s right rearward – the trigger spring is trying to fire the gun! However recall the striker also has a spring that pushes the striker toward the front of the gun. When the slide is racked and released, the tab on the striker engages the crude sear on the trigger bar. The striker spring and the trigger spring act against each other which pull the trigger to its full forward position and the striker not quite to the end of its travel. And, that’s where the debate comes from. The action of the slide only partially cocks the striker, looks to me like to about 3/4 of its break position. So what gets the striker to move rearward more to the break position? Pulling the trigger! So the trigger first moves the striker rearward and continued rearward motion separates the two sears and the striker is driven forward by the striker spring into the primer of the bullet. What’s the nature of a SA trigger? It does one thing – break the shot. How many things does the Glock trigger do? While you’re thinking about that, I’ll move on to a similar conundrum with the LEM trigger.

Like the Safe Action is proprietary to Glock, the LEM is proprietary to Hk (Heckler and Koch). The LEM action is available on the Hk USP and the Hk P2000 and I’m not sure about the P30. The action on both the USP and P2000 are hammer fired instead of striker fired – they have an external hammer. I’ll describe the LEM on my P2000 and assume the LEM on a USP works the same but I don’t know that for sure.

OK, when the slide is racked and released, an internal ‘hammer’ is set. When the trigger is pulled the external hammer is rotated into the release position. The pull is quite light until the external hammer reaches the break point. At the break point, the trigger resistance increases dramatically and abruptly because both hammers are about to be released. When the shot is fired, the cycle repeats.

The gun is left with the internal hammer cocked and the external hammer down. This kinda seems like the cocked SA semi we discussed earlier, but the difference is the Hk P2000 has a much longer, albeit lighter trigger pull and then an even heavier pull at the break point. But it is a DAO action because the trigger has to move the external hammer just like the DA mode of a revolver and then if breaks the shot – two things. Next up, the DA/SA.

DA/SA – Double Action/Single Action
This only applies to semi-automatics even though as we’ve seen, a DA revolver can be fired both DA and SA. But the DA/SA can do something the DA revolver can’t. It automatically changes from a DA first shot, to SA only. So in a nutshell, the first shot out of a DA/SA is in the DA mode, and the next shot(s) is SA. The DA trigger mode is much like the DA of a revolver in that it is relatively long and heavy. Then, without warning, after the first shot, it goes into a light, short SA mode. When you stop shooting, the gun is left cocked in the SA mode. So to make it safe, you have to manually decock the hammer. Fortunately, most DA/SA autos have a decock lever, or decocker. When manually operated, the decocker drops the hammer without and danger of the gun being discharged in the process. But, just like the manual thumb safety on a 1911, the decocker of the DA/SA is an added complication.

I’ve shot these things for years and I personally feel these are the least desirable types of triggers on the market. They have a relatively long, heavy pull on the first shot and then that light, short pull on the next shot(s). This complicates learning the trigger, or I should say the two-in-one triggers. It complicates the handling of the firearm, and from what I have observed over many, many years, it promotes shallow, if not out right poor training habits.

Before I go on, let me say, the system works, but to truly deploy the gun as intended, it takes some dedicated, deliberate training. Just to prove the DA/SA system works, Ernst Langdon took a Sig P220 ST DA/SA, did some polishing on the trigger components, and beat Rob Leatham in a national competition and Rob was shooting his high dollar custom 1911 – SA for those of you that don’t know. But we aren’t Ernst Langdon and we don’t shoot 20 – 30 thousand rounds a year, and we don’t do the same level or dedicated training he does.

So back to the real world and why I say the DA/SA promotes some bad, even deceiving practice sessions. Here’s how I see many shooters train with their DA/SA guns. They get to the range, load up range ammo in a mag (magazine), shove the mag in the gun and rack the slide. Racking the slide cocked the hammer and put them in the SA mode. Most people run the magazine in the SA mode. A few may decock the for the first shot. They leave the range thinking how good they can shoot a DA/SA gun. But what about reality? Let’s say they’re caught in a situation where they have no choice but to draw and fire in a life or death situation. What’s the first shot going to be? DA! What mode do they rarely if ever, fire their gun? DA! When’s the first time they’re going to use DA? In a real life or death situation! Does that sound good?

Which is mode is more difficult to shoot in? DA. Which mode should be practiced more then? DA.

one of the most unique handgusn in the world
That leaves us with one unique gun to discuss, the Hk USP. The USP can be carried as a DA/SA or as a SA with the thumb safety on. This is a particular example of where there would be a distinction between SA and SAO. I cannot say the USP is SAO, because it can be fired and carried as a DA/SA also.

In the SA mode, i.e. hammer cocked, the Hk has a fine SA trigger, almost rivaling the 1911’s crisp break. OTOH, the USP has the worst DA trigger I’ve ever seen in a modern gun. It is not only long and heavy, it’s creepy and spongy.

Anyway the USP can be carried in essentially three modes – ‘cocked and locked’ SA, hammer down in DA/SA and hammer down and safety on in DA/SA mode.

The SRT
The SRT refers to Sig's proprietary trigger reset modification. It shortens the trigger reset on the P220, 226, and 229 DA/SA guns. Note that the SRT is only for DA/SA guns. It has no application on DAK triggers or the P250 DAO trigger. I haven't tried one, but I hear good things about it. I am quite skeptical though, because I have also heard of premature discharges because the trigger is too easy to operate. Plus it applies to one of the worst trigger configurations on the market - the DA/SA and it does nothing for the DA mode that needs more help than the SA mode.

Magazine disconnects.
This is quite a controversial device. I’ve known police officers with years and years of service that will attest that the magazine safety or disconnect saved a number of lives in his department alone and further that they have never had a bad outcome due to them. Others, at best, have given one or two isolated cases where a magazine safety changed the outcome for the worst, or could have had the event actually occurred.

The Chattanooga PD has use S&W semi-autos for years and years and years and I have yet to hear of one negative outcome due to the magazine disconnect or safety. So what is this controversial thing?

It means, that if you remove the magazine from the gun, the gun cannot be fired even if the trigger is pulled and you have a round in the chamber.

One of the most common accidents with semis occurs when a person has forgotten how his gun works because he’s not a gun guy, but he removes the magazine thinking that unloads the gun, yet it still has a round chambered. He pulls the trigger to decock it or for whatever reason, or he hands it to a buddy that’s not a gun guy or not familiar with semis and rules and he pulls the trigger and BANG, the one in the chamber fires. That couldn’t happen with a mag disconnect aka mag safety.

The benefit of this feature may be a moot point since you can only get it on S&W pistols and the only S&W available at your gun store at the time may or may not have the magazine safety so you may have to take what’s there or wait a long time. Personally I like them and have them on both my M&Ps.
 
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#37 ·
Great thread, very informative. I soaked it all up an have found that I am still favoring my DA/SA Sig P220r. I have fired some Glocks and I was quite impressed with the reset on the trigger. I think for me there are too many mechanics involved with making it go bang. I have a LE family member who is a die hard Glock owner and I certainly respect these firearms. I have also experianced Springfield's XDm and have enjoyed various 1911's. I have also trained with Beretta 92's for some years now. Definitly a matter of preference here but I think I will always go with something that utilizes an external hammer (with spur) and a metal frame. out of all these models I prefer my SIG. I cant think of anything that could make it inferior to any other handgun in a SD scenario. Bottom line; It's not all about the gun, It's all about the shooters ability to put bullets into BG's.

PS: To anyone who has tried the SRT, would you consider it enough of an improvement to be worth having it done on my daily driver? I dont want to get it and decide I find it less functional than before. kinda like when I bought those Equinox grips. mag release was set too deep for me to press it without having to dramatically shift my grip on the weapon. blech.
 
#38 ·
Just my two cents...

The paradigm has been set through historical use (there is no official body deciding these things, right?) The term "Action" refers ONLY to the trigger, and not the operation of the weapon (hammer and striker are fully interchangeable, for example). A trigger action is defined by two words and only two words, the former being a descriptor ("Single", "Double"), the latter being "Action."

So...

Single Action (SA) = a trigger that releases a fully cocked hammer.
Double Action (DA) = a trigger that cocks a fully rested hammer to fully cocked then releases it.

Proposed:
-------------------------
Eliminate SA/DA in favor of:
Both Action (BA) = both a SA and a DA trigger
OR
Either Action (EA) = either a SA or a DA trigger

Eliminate DAO. Now just DA.

To account for Glock, PF9, LC9, Kahr, et al.:
Partial Action (PA) = a trigger that partially cocks a hammer and releases it.
 
#39 ·
Terrific info on the function of handgun actions here, well done!
 
#40 ·
45super said:
Just my two cents...

The paradigm has been set through historical use (there is no official body deciding these things, right?) The term "Action" refers ONLY to the trigger, and not the operation of the weapon (hammer and striker are fully interchangeable, for example). A trigger action is defined by two words and only two words, the former being a descriptor ("Single", "Double"), the latter being "Action."

So...

Single Action (SA) = a trigger that releases a fully cocked hammer.
Double Action (DA) = a trigger that cocks a fully rested hammer to fully cocked then releases it.
I'm not aware of any 'official' definition that states '...cocks a fully rested hammer...'. The defacto definition in long standing use, used by the BATFE to classify a gun as well as the IDPA, is the simple concept of SA or DA. SA meaning one thing - it drops the hammer. DA means it does more than just drop the hammer. So with a Glock, the trigger action cocks a partially cocked striker and then releases it - that's more than one thing, hence it is classified a DAO.
 
#41 ·
Tangle, thank you!

Hello Everyone. This is my first post here and I am also new to the world of guns. I just got my FID card and hand gun permits. So far I’ve taken two self-defense courses, both taught by an NRA certified instructor who also trains police officers. As a quick introduction, I live in central NJ and am in the investment management business. So I don’t come from a law enforcement background.

First of all, I wanted to thank Tangle for his write-up on the different action types. Tangle, it is obvious that you thought about the topic for a long time. I thought your post was thoughtful, articulate and well-written. Your explanation of the different action types and the pros and cons of each were clear; it is probably one of the best posts I’ve read on the internet so thank you for writing it. I don’t know what “sticky” actually means when it refers to posts but it certainly “stuck’’ in my mind.

I liked your post so much that I was inspired to join this forum. In fact, I read the whole thread several times to fully understand the topic. Before reading your post I was ready to buy a DA/SA gun but now I am leaning towards the DAO and DAK. My gun instructor however is convinced the DA/SA is the way to go. I have several questions which I want to ask everyone and will post at the end of my ramblings.

My purpose in taking the gun courses was to educate myself about guns, to learn safe gun handling procedures, and to train myself in shooting a gun (reasonably) accurately. The primary purpose in getting a handgun is for home self-defense (HSD). After I saw the rioting and looting in Greece, Italy, Spain, France and the UK last year, I figured I needed to learn how to handle a gun safely. Since I believe the rioting and looting will, unfortunately, come to the U.S. in several years, I wanted to be prepared. Furthermore, after renting and shooting guns at the target range, I have become a “gun enthusiast” and now have a new and fun hobby! http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/images/smilies/vol_1/banana.gif

After a lot of exhaustive research on the internet, gun manufacturer’s websites and shooting different 9mm guns (Glock 19 Gen4, Beretta 92FS, Ruger SR9c, HK P30, HK P2000 v3, HK P2000sk and Sig P226 Enhanced Elite with SRT) I have decided to get a Sig gun because I really enjoyed shooting my friend’s Sig P226 Elite; it was sweet! The Short Reset Trigger scares the daylights out of me though because after taking the first DA shot, I inadvertently let loose two more shots down range in quick succession. I’ve decided to get the Sig P229 and a Sig P250 2SUM, both in 9mm. I realize the P250 is DAO with a stated trigger pull weight of 6 lbs. and I am OK with it.

So here are my questions:

1) Should I get the P229 in DA/SA with stated trigger pull weights of 10/4.4 lbs. or in DAK with 6.5/8.5 pounds? According to some folks the real trigger pull weights on the DAK is 7.5/9.5 pounds. Does an increase of a pound in pull weight matter? Are the DA/SA pull weights of really 10/4.4 lbs.? http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/images/smilies/vol_1/confused.gif

2) Since I will be practicing with the P229 at the shooting range and since I really like the 4.4 pounds SA trigger, I am tempted to stick with the DA/SA. I figure 99.9% of my time with the P229 will be at the shooting range and maybe 0.1% of the time in a HSD situation (although a very critical time). So my thought is if I am in a Home Self Defense situation, why not rack the slide for the first shot so the P229 is in SA mode which is the mode I would have practiced the most? I am sure there is a flaw in my thinking. Please let me know what that is. Thank you! (I realize that by going into SA mode I’ve disabled the safety feature of the DA/SA gun.)


3) For the Sig P250, the stated trigger pull weight is 6 pounds. Is that correct or is it higher? Or does it not matter?

4) I realize that a DAO or a DAK trigger have long pulls. Since I haven’t had enough practice and experience, how long is long? I’ve seen some people describe it as loooooooong. What does that mean? One of my biggest worries is that I might accidentally shoot a family member in a “false” HSD situation (especially with the adrenaline going strong). So a double action pull would give me an extra second (?) to reconsider before pulling the trigger. I would not have that second with a SA.

The first three questions have to do with being proficient in using a certain type of action type. Question 4 is about safety. For me the safety issue trumps the action type question so I am leaning towards the DAK. What do you guys think?

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/images/smilies/vol_1/smile2.gif
 
#42 ·
First let me congratulate you on your decision to get and learn to use a handgun - you've certainly taken the right approach.

Then, I apologize for being so slow to respond - the last three or so weeks have been really busy for me.

BlueHawk76 said:
...So here are my questions:
1) Should I get the P229 in DA/SA with stated trigger pull weights of 10/4.4 lbs. or in DAK with 6.5/8.5 pounds? According to some folks the real trigger pull weights on the DAK is 7.5/9.5 pounds. Does an increase of a pound in pull weight matter? Are the DA/SA pull weights of really 10/4.4 lbs.? http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/...1/confused.gif
The Sig P226 Elite is an excellent gun; I have a Sig P226 Enhanced Elite. The Enhanced just means it has the newer style grip.

The DA/SA first: There some serious problems with the DA/SA, one is the long, heavy first shot (DA), and two, the discipline required to train with the DA, and three the elevated sensitivity of the SA trigger in stressful conditions.

Let's start with the trigger weight: My Elite measures right at 11 lbs on my Lyman Digital trigger pull scale. That's about 60% heavier than my DAK triggers (about 7 lbs) and very nearly the same pull distance as a like the DAK and DAO of the P250 (about 7.5 lbs). Some time back, I measured the pull length and reset length of the DAK and P250. They are so close I could not measure the difference. That surprises a lot of people because there is a general misconception that the P250 has the long pull and reset - it is identical to the DAK in the light, long mode.

While one can master the DA/SA it takes both discipline and practice, more so than with other trigger systems. I see time and time again people at the range shooting a DA/SA by loading a mag, racking the slide and shooting in SA only to slide lock and the repeat the same mistake over and over. The mistake is not shooting about a third of the total number of shots fired in the DA mode. The 'third' comes from the stat that says the average civilian gunfight is about 2 - 3 rounds. While we don't want to bet our life on that, it still says that if I have to shoot three shots, the first is going to be a DA shot and the next two SA. Hence, based on that, we need to shoot about a third of our shots DA. I can't make myself do that! I, like the vast majority, like that single action trigger and the results I get with it. The DA/SA takes time and commitment to become proficient with it.

You pointed out one other issue, remember the premature firing with the SRT trigger system? That's happened to me too, and I shoot a LOT! I shot over 12,000 rounds last year and am up to 5900 this year with another hundred or so in the works today.

The third issue with a DA/SA is the decock. I've seen DA/SAs holstered with the hammer cocked. I won't go so far to say that that's unsafe, the hammer still can't fall until the trigger is pulled, but that same issue applies to a SD shooting. Say we've shot a couple of shots in a justified SD. What condition are we in? Have we been shot as well? Are we adrenaline pumped? Scared? And there we stand with our finger on a 4.5 lb trigger with our brain in a mode it has never experienced before. Are we going to remember to take our finger off the trigger? Are we going to remember to decock?

OTOH, we hear of very, very few issues with a DAO revolver. The issues we hear about with revolvers are the DA revolvers and practically every unintentional incident has occurred in the SA mode. The DAK and the P250 DAO are very revolver like. The cocked DA/SA is very SA revolver-like.

BlueHawk76 said:
...2) Since I will be practicing with the P229 at the shooting range and since I really like the 4.4 pounds SA trigger, I am tempted to stick with the DA/SA. I figure 99.9% of my time with the P229 will be at the shooting range and maybe 0.1% of the time in a HSD situation (although a very critical time). So my thought is if I am in a Home Self Defense situation, why not rack the slide for the first shot so the P229 is in SA mode which is the mode I would have practiced the most? I am sure there is a flaw in my thinking. Please let me know what that is. Thank you! (I realize that by going into SA mode I’ve disabled the safety feature of the DA/SA gun.)
I wouldn't go so far as a flaw, but there we are in that high stress situation with a very short, light SA trigger. Trainers will tell you how frequently in force on force training they have to remind experienced, trained personnel to take their finger off the trigger. Ernst Langdon once told me this: "Under stress, fingers migrate to the trigger - they just do." There have been any number of training situations where, after the drill, they ask the person if they had their finger on the trigger and the person says they definitely did not and were conscious that they did not. Then they look at the video and their finger was on the trigger practically the whole time! Talk about embarassed!

BlueHawk76 said:
3) For the Sig P250, the stated trigger pull weight is 6 pounds. Is that correct or is it higher? Or does it not matter?
My P250 measures right at 7.25 lbs but it is so smooth and consistent that it feels much lighter. That's probably about what the DA pull on a revolver is. In fact, the DA on a revolver may be a bit heavier.

What most people talk about is the long pull. Well, it is long compared to SAs and Glock and M&P type actions, but as I've said previously, it's the same pull and distance as a DAK. BTW, the FAM (Federal Air Marshals) used P229 DAKs in .357 sig for a long time - may still be using them.

BlueHawk76 said:
...4) I realize that a DAO or a DAK trigger have long pulls. Since I haven’t had enough practice and experience, how long is long? I’ve seen some people describe it as loooooooong. What does that mean? One of my biggest worries is that I might accidentally shoot a family member in a “false” HSD situation (especially with the adrenaline going strong). So a double action pull would give me an extra second (?) to reconsider before pulling the trigger. I would not have that second with a SA.
I'm not sure what they mean. I've heard them praise the DAK and criticize the P250 trigger pull which we know is identical in pull and weight. The DAK and P250 are essentially the same pull length and reset as a revolver, but both have slightly lighter pulls than revolvers.

As for safety, I'll tell you what Ernst Langdon told me about that. He had access to a bunch of stuff we don't have. He said a study clearly showed that long trigger pulls were far more significant than trigger pull weight for preventing an unintentional discharge under stress.

BlueHawk76 said:
...The first three questions have to do with being proficient in using a certain type of action type. Question 4 is about safety. For me the safety issue trumps the action type question so I am leaning towards the DAK. What do you guys think?
I think you're right on. I know some will disagree with that, and you'll hear the brain is the only safety you need, but history simply doesn't support that simple-minded cliche. If the brain is such a good safety, how come we see so many auto, shop, hobbly, sports, etc. accidents? Brains fail, especially under stress. I've seen Golden Glove boxers in big matches get so stressed that they throw up. So much for the brain controlling the situation.

Still the brain is our primary safety, but because we've seen so many brain failures over the years, it doesn't hurt to have some backup for the times the brain goes astray.

Having said all that, I carry a Glock 17 gen 4 with Ghost Rocket connector in it. The Glock is a DAO to a degree, but it lacks the trigger pull length to provide the backup a long pull DAO does. Remember, pull length is more significant than trigger weight - the Glock has a relatively short trigger pull. Even the P30 in SA has a long reset to give a longer trigger pull. But, I do shoot/train a lot. I just hope it's enough so that I shoot and hit what I need to when I need to and don't shoot when I don't intend to.

Lastly (about time huh!) if you go with the P250, you may not find 'accessories' quite as readily available. You'll have a harder time finding 'off the shelf' holsters, but most of the name brand custom holster manufacturers do make holsters for the P250.

The P250 sights are another consideration. The rear sight is quite unique and may be harder to find sights to fit it.
 
#43 ·
Thank you so much for such a long and detailed response. So to sum up, it looks like the DAK and DAO is the way to go especially from a safety and proficiency perspective. I have a few follow up questions.

1) I've heard that with the Sig P250 you feel much more of the recoil because of the polymer frame (as opposed to the metal frames on the other Sigs) and the lightness of the gun (around 25 ounces). Is that true? The problem is I can't rent this gun and feel the recoil myself. I would be buying blind.

2) All of the gun sales people I talk to don't understand why I want the DAK trigger since I am not a LEO. One person even said that they don't make the Sig P229 in DAK anymore. Is that true?

3) I am sorry but I didn't get what you meant about the P250 sights. If it comes with rear sights, why would I want another? Is the rear sight not adequate? Also, I don't plan to carry (currently) so a proper fitting holster would not be a consideration.

Thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions.
 
#44 ·
Thank you so much for such a long and detailed response. So to sum up, it looks like the DAK and DAO is the way to go especially from a safety and proficiency perspective. I have a few follow up questions.

1) I've heard that with the Sig P250 you feel much more of the recoil because of the polymer frame (as opposed to the metal frames on the other Sigs) and the lightness of the gun (around 25 ounces). Is that true? The problem is I can't rent this gun and feel the recoil myself. I would be buying blind.
A Sig P229 weighs 32 oz; a P250 weighs 25 oz. That is a significant difference, but I don't believe it manifests itself that much in shooting. For example, here are the targets I shot today with my P250fs at various ranges. BTW, I shot my G34 with a Ghost Rocket connector and didn't shoot it this well or fast. I'm not knocking Glocks at all, just stating what I did today:

1- Not sure what happened on the center. That's 5 shots each at 3, 5, 7, 10, and 15 yds. The four off to the side were the 15 yard shots - nice group, just off to the side.

2- The head shot is 25 rapid fire, not really blazing, but not slow either, at 7 yards.

3- The neck shots are 25 rapid fire at 7 yds.


In the following pic,
1- Same as 1 above but you can see I corrected the 'left' issue at 15 yds, notice all but one shot is in the X ring, maybe that was bad ammo??? :redface: :tongue:

2- Head and neck shots are 25 rapid fire shots on each dot at 7 yds

3- the chest shots are 25 rapid fire shots at 10 yds



I'm not saying everyone can shoot the P250 like that, some might be better.............thinking..........well that might be a bit of a stretch....:tongue:..........some might not shoot the P250 as well, but the gun is a shooter!

What's not evident in the pics is how easy it was.

...2) All of the gun sales people I talk to don't understand why I want the DAK trigger since I am not a LEO. One person even said that they don't make the Sig P229 in DAK anymore. Is that true?
Well, the P229 is still on the Sig website, and the FAM are still using the DAK trigger. Bud's Gun Shop still lists them, my local gun shop says you can order any P series with a DAK or DA/SA trigger.

Gun sales people don't understand a lot of stuff - no offense to those that do know their business, but a lot don't.

...3) I am sorry but I didn't get what you meant about the P250 sights. If it comes with rear sights, why would I want another? Is the rear sight not adequate? Also, I don't plan to carry (currently) so a proper fitting holster would not be a consideration.
Some people have 'favorite' sights they like to install on their guns; e.g. I like Heinie two dot sights.

The P250 does come with good sights and usually night sights, so that really isn't an issue unless you want some special kind of sight.

I'm pretty happy with the stock sig night sights that come with them.

The P229/6 series costs significantly more than a P250, and some will say you get what you pay for, but then Glocks cost significantly less than the P229/6 series as well. I like the P250 trigger better than the DAK, but that's just me personally.
 
#45 ·
Tangle, thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions so thoroughly and with pictures too. Looks like you had a lot of fun at the gun range today!:danceban: You must be retired to be able to take time off on a weekday. Your groupings are awesome.:35: I will have to show you mine after a year or so (when I can actually shoot some decent groupings) and after I figure out how to upload pictures.

What I didn't mention before in my postings is that I am considering buying 3 guns. Based on our conversation so far I am leaning towards the following ones: 1) Sig P229 with night sights in DAK 2) Sig P250 2Sum with night sights and 3) Sig P239 with night sights in DAK. Basically what I needed to figure out was: should I choose DAK over DA/SA? and is the recoil on the P250 manageable? It seems that the answer to both questions is yes. You've giving me the confidence to proceed forward with the purchases. The difficulty in buying a gun is that one can't try it out beforehand in many cases so you are buying blind (so to speak). I am counting on Sig's quality reputation that the P229 and P239 will be just as good as the P226 I shot.

I will read the other postings on this forum but won't be able to contribute much because of my inexperience. If anyone has questions about investing , on the other hand, those I can answer (but this isn't the forum for it though!).:rolleyes:

Take care.:smile:
 
#46 ·
Not retired - off for the summer. I teach electrical/electronic engineering technology at a community college, but yes, I had a good time at the range!

Opinions about guns go all over the place. Yesterday, I would have been pushing the Sig P229 or a Glock 17 or 19. Today, after what I was able to do at the range with the P250, I'm carrying my P250 now and just ordered a Kramer Vertical Scabbard (that's what Kramer calls a holster) in horsehide for it. I'm already seriously thinking about a P250 compact.

But, while I'm happy as can be with the P250, some really dislike it - they just can't get past the DAO trigger. I guess what I'm saying is no matter how much I like a P250, it doesn't mean you will. I think you will. I know a lot of first time buyers that have been really pleased with it.

Moving on, I should point this out about the P250: you can do all kinds of things with it. I bought a full size frame for $40 - no transfer required because on the trigger group is a 'gun', not the frame. I cut the dust cover back to the compact frame size, slid on a compact slide and had a 'commander' sized P250 - for $40! A full size, 17 round capacity frame with a compact length.

Many have cut a compact frame down to subcompact size and put the subcompact slide on it. The subcompact frame doesn't have the rails, so by cutting down the compact frame which does have the rails, they construct a subcompact length with rails and a compact capacity.

You can put a full size slide on a compact frame; a compact slide on a subcompact frame. Guys have painted them with Duracoat in all kinds of colors and patterns. The reason they are so bold, is if they completely ruin the frame, they're only out $40 and some USPS postage.
 
#47 ·
Not retired - off for the summer. I teach electrical/electronic engineering technology at a community college, but yes, I had a good time at the range!

But, while I'm happy as can be with the P250, some really dislike it - they just can't get past the DAO trigger. I guess what I'm saying is no matter how much I like a P250, it doesn't mean you will. I think you will. I know a lot of first time buyers that have been really pleased with it.
My father was a math professor at a state college in upstate New York so I know all about being off for the summer. He and I worked on our rental houses during the summers when the students were gone.

I stopped by a gun store today and got a chance to hold and dry fire a P250 compact. It felt really good in my hands. It was just the right size and weight. The grip fit perfectly. I started to rethink whether I should get the P250 2SUM (full size and subcompact) or the just the compact! I also dry fired the pistol and I liked the 7 lb DAO trigger. The long pull didn't seem so long at all.:smile: But I now have a problem: NJ allows 15 or fewer capacity mags and the mag for the full size is 17 rounds! So I may well have to get the compact size.

The sales guy also showed me a Sig P225 9mm made in Germany. I didn't know about the P225 but it fit my hand well and weighed just right too. Later I did some searches on the internet to find out more about this gun. It seems like it was the precursor to the P228 and the P229. I will stick to the P229. I dry fired several Sigs with the DA/SA and I don't like that first 11 lb pull at all after "shooting" the DAO on the P250.

The gun shops do not carry the Sigs in DAK. I have to order them and then wait 6 weeks! Bummer.:mad:
 
#50 ·
So, Kahr calls their "Trigger cocking DAO". It's definitely not DAO, as the slide must "pre-cock" before the striker can be released by pulling the trigger... is this similar to the Glock, or the XD's USA mechansims?
I'm a new gun owner. I recently bought a Taurus TCP (738). It seems to be a similar "Trigger (semi-)cocking DAO". The hammer appears to be semi-cocked by racking the slide. I guess it is still considered DA because pulling the trigger - (1) completes the cocking of the hammer and (2) releases the hammer.

maybe?
 
#51 ·
I never have been comfortable with cocked & locked. I love sigs 226 220 but I find all metal guns to heavy for all day carry. I love H&K USP. In summer I smart carry, I like decocked with safety. I like a long trigger pull on the first shot. I also love a short reset. The reason for different actions, individuals can find what they are comfortable with.
 
#52 ·
Hey OP you spelled TANGLE El Wrongo:blink: It's TANGO, TANGLE!!!!!

Just blowin' your kilt up TANGO:blink:

HUA
 
#53 ·
As far as I know the kahr trigger system functions a lot like a glock. The difference lies in their cam that is used to pull the striker back and eventually release to induce primer ignition. This differs from the the glock trigger bar and disconnector combo used to accomplish the same task. Simply put, same theory (slightly) different execution. The kahr triggers are some of the smoothest DAO systems ever designed. It is largely due to some great engineering on their part. I personally love the feel of the kahr system and see a lot of promise in the design. Only time will reveal the truth as to the reliability and flexibility of the cam system. The glock trigger on the other hand seems to be a simpler design lending itself to great reliability as well as modification. Most people will agree that not everyone likes the same trigger config. and the glock design allows a wide spectrum of weights and profiles to be applied. This lets the shooter tune the gun to help them shoot at their best no matter what config that may be. I would like to see this same flexibility implemented in the kahr platform. I belive that flexibility would make the kahr cam setup one of the best personal defense handgun options. I personally carry a glock 26 or 17. I have installed Ghost Inc's Evo Elite connectors in both. I also replaced some of the springs using their spring kits. I still run the stock striker spring as that is what produced the best results on paper. Their "target" spring included in the kit is fun for range days but simply does not provide ME with the amount of feedback I wanted out of the glock trigger. I will say that this setup makes for a simple to manipulate (the most simple I've found) system while still providing the necessary level of safety. The stock glock configuration does the same thing and does it just fine but with the addition of these small mods it also helps me, the operator, to achieve extremely accurate shot placement through smooth trigger travel and uniform resistance throughout the trigger stroke. This modification will also provide the user with little to no overtravel after the shot breaks. This lack of excess movement allows the trigger to break and denies the shooter from making unwanted aiming inputs as a result of applying pressure to a firm trigger to break the shot. Consequently the shooter experiences a sudden drop in trigger tension that causes unwanted movement after the shot is fired. I have found this approach on trigger manipulation yields outstanding results in both accuracy and speed. Like I said before, everyone is different, but after taking in all the available designs along with their accompanying operational methodology I have found the glock "style" to be the most efficient of all the platforms. I have found that coupled with the right philosophies on deployment and operation of this system, the operator is able to achieve the maximum level of efficiency and is able to engage a hostile target as quickly as possible while requiring the least effort (both physically and mentally).
 
#54 ·
I have installed Ghost Inc's Evo Elite connectors in both. I also replaced some of the springs using their spring kits. I still run the stock striker spring as that is what produced the best results on paper. Their "target" spring included in the kit is fun for range days but simply does not provide ME with the amount of feedback I wanted out of the glock trigger. I will say that this setup makes for a simple to manipulate (the most simple I've found) system while still providing the necessary level of safety.
Some like the NY-1 8 lb. spring with the Ghost 3.5 lb., or Glock "-", or Ranger, dis-connector. It supposedly gives even pressure through its 5.5 lbs. pull.

To me, the weight doesn't feel much different than the factory setup; but overall the trigger is less mushy, and the most noticeable difference is that [the] reset is much crisper.
Glock 19 modifications - disconnector advice please [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=510632

http://www.glockmeister.com/EvaluationofTriggerPulls.asp *****
 
#58 ·
#56 · (Edited)
Great write-up! Very good explanation of each...a good one to print out and have handy when the uninformed ask if your gun, a DW Custom 1911, came with a Safe Action Trigger, LOL!!

(I don't, however, agree with the SA/DA criticisms; I love my FNX which is as the USP you described except with a pretty damn good DA action. I have run about 300 rounds through it in DA only -- Shoot, decock, shoot, decock, repeat 298 more times -- so I also make the training "real")

Thanks for the OP!

EDIT: missed the original dates...sorry for raising the dead.
___________________________________
iPad & TapaTalk HD
 
#75 ·
I enjoyed your article but have to disagree with you about magazine safeties. Along with the S&W most modern Star pistols have the magazine safety. The following website is dedicated to the Star line of handguns. I am posting the magazine information page from the site. Star Firearms : Information on Magazines
I have a S&W with a Mag disconnect, and I just roll with it.
 
#62 ·
I'm on the fence regarding trigger type for my first CCW. I really like the idea of the LEM and I think DA/SA would be very good as well. I understand LEM but for DA/SA (like a Sig P229), if I insert a full mag and don't charge the pistol will it fire? I assume not but I want to confirm. If not, then I'd need to insert mag, charge pistol, then decock to leave the pistol in DA mode for CCW? Thanks.
 
#63 ·
I'm unaware of any pistol that will fire if there isn't a round chambered (charged).

But a DA/SA definitely won't.

And yes, you have the sequence correct for a traditional Sig; insert mag, charge pistol, decock and holster.
 
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#67 ·
First let’s clear this up: SA and SAO mean the same thing. SAO may better emphasize that this is the only way a gun can be shot, but that is also at least implied by SA.
I half agree. I still like to use SA to refer to my P229's DA/SA single action pull and SAO when referring to a P229 SAO because the SA of a DA/SA is not SAO by definition because it has a DA option. Likewise, a P229 Legion SAO does not have a DA option. It's also in my opinion why it is called DA/SA and not DA/SAO. But again, that's just my opinion I have zero authority when it comes to naming convention with firearms.
 
#69 ·
I understand what you're saying, but by the same logic we could call a DA/SA a DA instead of a SA. The Colt Single Action Army and many similar guns pretty well establish the definition of SA, and they are single action only.
 
#70 ·
Though that is true, we also used to call semi-autos "automatics" as well. Firearms vernacular changes over time. It has to as new technology comes out. Personally I wouldn't call a DA/SA anything but a DA/SA because it is more descriptive and less ambiguous. If you refer to a pistol as a DA or an SA, without additional context it can be misleading. On the other hand, the term DA/SA leaves no room for misunderstanding the type of firearm in question. Likewise, SAO and DAO also leave little or no ambiguity (except with something like a Ruger LCP II). SA and DA, however, to me are not the best ways to describe the overall action of firearms anymore. They are mostly only good for describing the act of pulling a SAO or DAO trigger. But again, that's just my opinion. The term DAO used to be used interchangeably with the term striker-fired a lot back in the day, but that got confusing when comparing the internal workings of a Glock vs. true DAO's and preloaded striker-fired guns like more recent options. These days, for semi-auto pistols, I mostly stick to SAO, DAO, DA/SA and striker-fired unless I am singling out something more specific like "DAK", but in five years maybe we'll have to classify them differently again.
 
#71 ·
...Personally I wouldn't call a DA/SA anything but a DA/SA because it is more descriptive and less ambiguous. If you refer to a pistol as a DA or an SA, without additional context it can be misleading.
I agree. :yup: I thought when you said in your previous post,

"I half agree. I still like to use SA to refer to my P229's DA/SA single action pull..."

you meant you referred to the DA/SA as SA, and now I see that's not what you meant.

But we fully agree, not half agree. I didn't suggest anywhere that a DA/SA action gun should or could be referred to as a SA. And yes, by definition and as the term DA/SA defines, the gun can be fired in DA or SA. Can't see where the half agree comes in.
 
#73 ·
My first handgun was a Beretta 92. I learned quickly to hate DA/SA. Plus the grip was just too wide for my hand. I then tried a 1911 and fell in love with the design. It's not fancy, never thought twice about carrying cocked & locked after I spent time at the range. Some have said they dislike the Series 80 because it can fail. Anything can fail, and there isn't much you can do about it. So the 1911 has been my choice for 30 some years. Heavy but I need the weight to offset tremors, so I don't mind.
 
#77 ·
"SAO" is a dumbed-down, illiterate term.

"SA" means the trigger performs a single action, i.e., dropping a cocked hammer.

It cannot do anything else

Adding "Only" to "single action" is unnecessary and redundant.

Likewise, "DA/SA" is another dumbed-down term for people that apparently cannot understand how a "DA" semiautomatic pistol operates.

"DA/SA" are modes of operation, whereas "DA" describes the trigger mechanism.
 
#78 ·
So all the engineers and gun manufactures couldn't figure it out and you did? Asking for a friend?
 
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