This is a discussion on SA, DA, DAO, DAK, SAO, Safe-Action, Ultra-Safe, LEM, SRT, mag safeties – huh? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Great thread....
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12
I like Glocks - period. It's not the only gun I like and I can't say that I like a Glock any more or any less than several other guns. But I love the reset of the Glock trigger. I like what can be a short reset with simple but good connector mods. What i don't like about the Glock trigger is that trigger safety. I must be the only person in the world that has had a number of trigger blocks due to that trigger safety. Here's what happens: as I start to push my presentation speeds, at some point apparently my trigger finger slides across the trigger forcing the trigger safety to the left of the trigger. As I then pull the trigger, the safety flexes and hangs on the left side of the trigger slot. As I said, I must be the only guy in the world that experiences that, because I've never heard anyone mention it.
Regarding the DAK trigger - I like it a LOT! I like the Sig 229/6 guns they come on. I recently purchased a Sig 229R SRT DA/SA and have done a lot of shooting with it and my 229R DAK. I simply shoot the DAK more accurately. I always shoot the DAK in the longer, lighter mode, and rarely if ever in the shorter, heavy mode. While some dislike the DAO trigger, I find a lot of comfort and confidence in it. It is a long pull, like a revolver trigger, but it is very smooth and much lighter than the DA on a DA/SA gun.
I'll just say this, probably get a lot of flack about it, but that's not going to change anything - a DA/SA takes a lot of training and discipline to shoot properly and effectively. You can illustrate this readily by setting up some challenging targets and shooting a DAK side by side with a DA/SA. Shoot three shots from each. You must shoot the first shot of the DA/SA in the DA mode just like you would if you had to draw and fire. Repeat alternating the guns for at least 48 rounds and score the targets.
Another plus for the DAK is not having a safety or decocker to manipulate. One cannot fully appreciate this until he's carried a DAO for a while, be it a Glock, DAK, or a P250. I mainly carry the P250 now in some variation. The trigger pull weight, pull length, reset length of the P250 is exactly the same as the DAK. The only difference between the two is the DAK has the short, heavy mode and the P250 is always the same.
There are essentially seven reasons I choose the P250. One, it is reliable. I'm now at about 1500 rounds through mine without a single issue of any kind, so Sig has the reliability issue resolved.
Two, I can carry all kinds of variations depending on my 'mission'. I have a compact, a full size, and a full-size frame cut back to the compact slide size and I have three X mags to adapt fs mags to the compact frame. So with those options, I can carry a full-size, which I carry most of the time, a full size grip with a compact frame, creating a 'Commander' effect, a compact with compact mags, or a compact with X mags (17 rounds in a 15 round gun).
Three, in a given size, it's lighter than Sig Classic. That may not seem like much, but it can be.
Four, the compact size holds two more rounds than the equivalent sized P229
Five, I have a small grip size for my full-size grip and it has a shorter trigger reach than then E2 type grip.
Six,, accuracy; I, and others such as Bruce Gray, find this gun to be as accurate or more accurate than any polymer gun.
Well, I have drifted, so back to topic with number seven, the DAO trigger: The P250 is about as light and smooth as it gets for an out of the box DAO trigger. Many are surprised at how quickly they can adapt to the P250's DAO trigger, and the same can be said for the DAK trigger. They're so close I can hardly feel a difference. The only significant difference is the P250 has a significantly shorter trigger reach.
In addition to these seven, I should add the resistance to an unitentional or premature discharge under stress. I just read an article about that very thing recently. After a shooting, fear, adrenilene is going to be rampant. Holding a gun under these conditions with the mind racing is not the time to have a light short trigger - things happen. That long trigger pull makes a pre-mature discharge and some unintentional discharges all but impossible. I've seen holstered 1911s with the safety off and I've seen several DA/SAs holstered without being decocked. And this is just the stress produced in training - no where near the stress level of having defended one's life.
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
I like this op so much, I just wanted to put it up at the top again for anyone who has not seen it.
I finally read this thread and it was worth the time to go through it; especially for a "newbie" like me with just over one year with handguns. Thanks for all the info.
" Oh Lord, forgive my little joke on Thee and I will forgive Thy great big joke on me." R. Frost.
" The will of the majority, the natural law of every society, is the only sure guardian of the rights of man." Thomas Jefferson.
Great thread, very informative. I soaked it all up an have found that I am still favoring my DA/SA Sig P220r. I have fired some Glocks and I was quite impressed with the reset on the trigger. I think for me there are too many mechanics involved with making it go bang. I have a LE family member who is a die hard Glock owner and I certainly respect these firearms. I have also experianced Springfield's XDm and have enjoyed various 1911's. I have also trained with Beretta 92's for some years now. Definitly a matter of preference here but I think I will always go with something that utilizes an external hammer (with spur) and a metal frame. out of all these models I prefer my SIG. I cant think of anything that could make it inferior to any other handgun in a SD scenario. Bottom line; It's not all about the gun, It's all about the shooters ability to put bullets into BG's.
PS: To anyone who has tried the SRT, would you consider it enough of an improvement to be worth having it done on my daily driver? I dont want to get it and decide I find it less functional than before. kinda like when I bought those Equinox grips. mag release was set too deep for me to press it without having to dramatically shift my grip on the weapon. blech.
Just my two cents...
The paradigm has been set through historical use (there is no official body deciding these things, right?) The term "Action" refers ONLY to the trigger, and not the operation of the weapon (hammer and striker are fully interchangeable, for example). A trigger action is defined by two words and only two words, the former being a descriptor ("Single", "Double"), the latter being "Action."
Single Action (SA) = a trigger that releases a fully cocked hammer.
Double Action (DA) = a trigger that cocks a fully rested hammer to fully cocked then releases it.
Eliminate SA/DA in favor of:
Both Action (BA) = both a SA and a DA trigger
Either Action (EA) = either a SA or a DA trigger
Eliminate DAO. Now just DA.
To account for Glock, PF9, LC9, Kahr, et al.:
Partial Action (PA) = a trigger that partially cocks a hammer and releases it.
Terrific info on the function of handgun actions here, well done!
Never pick a fight with an old man...If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you - John Steinbeck
.................................................. .................................................. ......................They Live
I'm not aware of any 'official' definition that states '...cocks a fully rested hammer...'. The defacto definition in long standing use, used by the BATFE to classify a gun as well as the IDPA, is the simple concept of SA or DA. SA meaning one thing - it drops the hammer. DA means it does more than just drop the hammer. So with a Glock, the trigger action cocks a partially cocked striker and then releases it - that's more than one thing, hence it is classified a DAO.Originally Posted by 45super
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
Hello Everyone. This is my first post here and I am also new to the world of guns. I just got my FID card and hand gun permits. So far I’ve taken two self-defense courses, both taught by an NRA certified instructor who also trains police officers. As a quick introduction, I live in central NJ and am in the investment management business. So I don’t come from a law enforcement background.
First of all, I wanted to thank Tangle for his write-up on the different action types. Tangle, it is obvious that you thought about the topic for a long time. I thought your post was thoughtful, articulate and well-written. Your explanation of the different action types and the pros and cons of each were clear; it is probably one of the best posts I’ve read on the internet so thank you for writing it. I don’t know what “sticky” actually means when it refers to posts but it certainly “stuck’’ in my mind.
I liked your post so much that I was inspired to join this forum. In fact, I read the whole thread several times to fully understand the topic. Before reading your post I was ready to buy a DA/SA gun but now I am leaning towards the DAO and DAK. My gun instructor however is convinced the DA/SA is the way to go. I have several questions which I want to ask everyone and will post at the end of my ramblings.
My purpose in taking the gun courses was to educate myself about guns, to learn safe gun handling procedures, and to train myself in shooting a gun (reasonably) accurately. The primary purpose in getting a handgun is for home self-defense (HSD). After I saw the rioting and looting in Greece, Italy, Spain, France and the UK last year, I figured I needed to learn how to handle a gun safely. Since I believe the rioting and looting will, unfortunately, come to the U.S. in several years, I wanted to be prepared. Furthermore, after renting and shooting guns at the target range, I have become a “gun enthusiast” and now have a new and fun hobby! http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...l_1/banana.gif
After a lot of exhaustive research on the internet, gun manufacturer’s websites and shooting different 9mm guns (Glock 19 Gen4, Beretta 92FS, Ruger SR9c, HK P30, HK P2000 v3, HK P2000sk and Sig P226 Enhanced Elite with SRT) I have decided to get a Sig gun because I really enjoyed shooting my friend’s Sig P226 Elite; it was sweet! The Short Reset Trigger scares the daylights out of me though because after taking the first DA shot, I inadvertently let loose two more shots down range in quick succession. I’ve decided to get the Sig P229 and a Sig P250 2SUM, both in 9mm. I realize the P250 is DAO with a stated trigger pull weight of 6 lbs. and I am OK with it.
So here are my questions:
1) Should I get the P229 in DA/SA with stated trigger pull weights of 10/4.4 lbs. or in DAK with 6.5/8.5 pounds? According to some folks the real trigger pull weights on the DAK is 7.5/9.5 pounds. Does an increase of a pound in pull weight matter? Are the DA/SA pull weights of really 10/4.4 lbs.? http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...1/confused.gif
2) Since I will be practicing with the P229 at the shooting range and since I really like the 4.4 pounds SA trigger, I am tempted to stick with the DA/SA. I figure 99.9% of my time with the P229 will be at the shooting range and maybe 0.1% of the time in a HSD situation (although a very critical time). So my thought is if I am in a Home Self Defense situation, why not rack the slide for the first shot so the P229 is in SA mode which is the mode I would have practiced the most? I am sure there is a flaw in my thinking. Please let me know what that is. Thank you! (I realize that by going into SA mode I’ve disabled the safety feature of the DA/SA gun.)
3) For the Sig P250, the stated trigger pull weight is 6 pounds. Is that correct or is it higher? Or does it not matter?
4) I realize that a DAO or a DAK trigger have long pulls. Since I haven’t had enough practice and experience, how long is long? I’ve seen some people describe it as loooooooong. What does that mean? One of my biggest worries is that I might accidentally shoot a family member in a “false” HSD situation (especially with the adrenaline going strong). So a double action pull would give me an extra second (?) to reconsider before pulling the trigger. I would not have that second with a SA.
The first three questions have to do with being proficient in using a certain type of action type. Question 4 is about safety. For me the safety issue trumps the action type question so I am leaning towards the DAK. What do you guys think?
Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...l_1/smile2.gif
First let me congratulate you on your decision to get and learn to use a handgun - you've certainly taken the right approach.
Then, I apologize for being so slow to respond - the last three or so weeks have been really busy for me.
The Sig P226 Elite is an excellent gun; I have a Sig P226 Enhanced Elite. The Enhanced just means it has the newer style grip.Originally Posted by BlueHawk76
The DA/SA first: There some serious problems with the DA/SA, one is the long, heavy first shot (DA), and two, the discipline required to train with the DA, and three the elevated sensitivity of the SA trigger in stressful conditions.
Let's start with the trigger weight: My Elite measures right at 11 lbs on my Lyman Digital trigger pull scale. That's about 60% heavier than my DAK triggers (about 7 lbs) and very nearly the same pull distance as a like the DAK and DAO of the P250 (about 7.5 lbs). Some time back, I measured the pull length and reset length of the DAK and P250. They are so close I could not measure the difference. That surprises a lot of people because there is a general misconception that the P250 has the long pull and reset - it is identical to the DAK in the light, long mode.
While one can master the DA/SA it takes both discipline and practice, more so than with other trigger systems. I see time and time again people at the range shooting a DA/SA by loading a mag, racking the slide and shooting in SA only to slide lock and the repeat the same mistake over and over. The mistake is not shooting about a third of the total number of shots fired in the DA mode. The 'third' comes from the stat that says the average civilian gunfight is about 2 - 3 rounds. While we don't want to bet our life on that, it still says that if I have to shoot three shots, the first is going to be a DA shot and the next two SA. Hence, based on that, we need to shoot about a third of our shots DA. I can't make myself do that! I, like the vast majority, like that single action trigger and the results I get with it. The DA/SA takes time and commitment to become proficient with it.
You pointed out one other issue, remember the premature firing with the SRT trigger system? That's happened to me too, and I shoot a LOT! I shot over 12,000 rounds last year and am up to 5900 this year with another hundred or so in the works today.
The third issue with a DA/SA is the decock. I've seen DA/SAs holstered with the hammer cocked. I won't go so far to say that that's unsafe, the hammer still can't fall until the trigger is pulled, but that same issue applies to a SD shooting. Say we've shot a couple of shots in a justified SD. What condition are we in? Have we been shot as well? Are we adrenaline pumped? Scared? And there we stand with our finger on a 4.5 lb trigger with our brain in a mode it has never experienced before. Are we going to remember to take our finger off the trigger? Are we going to remember to decock?
OTOH, we hear of very, very few issues with a DAO revolver. The issues we hear about with revolvers are the DA revolvers and practically every unintentional incident has occurred in the SA mode. The DAK and the P250 DAO are very revolver like. The cocked DA/SA is very SA revolver-like.
I wouldn't go so far as a flaw, but there we are in that high stress situation with a very short, light SA trigger. Trainers will tell you how frequently in force on force training they have to remind experienced, trained personnel to take their finger off the trigger. Ernst Langdon once told me this: "Under stress, fingers migrate to the trigger - they just do." There have been any number of training situations where, after the drill, they ask the person if they had their finger on the trigger and the person says they definitely did not and were conscious that they did not. Then they look at the video and their finger was on the trigger practically the whole time! Talk about embarassed!Originally Posted by BlueHawk76
My P250 measures right at 7.25 lbs but it is so smooth and consistent that it feels much lighter. That's probably about what the DA pull on a revolver is. In fact, the DA on a revolver may be a bit heavier.Originally Posted by BlueHawk76
What most people talk about is the long pull. Well, it is long compared to SAs and Glock and M&P type actions, but as I've said previously, it's the same pull and distance as a DAK. BTW, the FAM (Federal Air Marshals) used P229 DAKs in .357 sig for a long time - may still be using them.
I'm not sure what they mean. I've heard them praise the DAK and criticize the P250 trigger pull which we know is identical in pull and weight. The DAK and P250 are essentially the same pull length and reset as a revolver, but both have slightly lighter pulls than revolvers.Originally Posted by BlueHawk76
As for safety, I'll tell you what Ernst Langdon told me about that. He had access to a bunch of stuff we don't have. He said a study clearly showed that long trigger pulls were far more significant than trigger pull weight for preventing an unintentional discharge under stress.
I think you're right on. I know some will disagree with that, and you'll hear the brain is the only safety you need, but history simply doesn't support that simple-minded cliche. If the brain is such a good safety, how come we see so many auto, shop, hobbly, sports, etc. accidents? Brains fail, especially under stress. I've seen Golden Glove boxers in big matches get so stressed that they throw up. So much for the brain controlling the situation.Originally Posted by BlueHawk76
Still the brain is our primary safety, but because we've seen so many brain failures over the years, it doesn't hurt to have some backup for the times the brain goes astray.
Having said all that, I carry a Glock 17 gen 4 with Ghost Rocket connector in it. The Glock is a DAO to a degree, but it lacks the trigger pull length to provide the backup a long pull DAO does. Remember, pull length is more significant than trigger weight - the Glock has a relatively short trigger pull. Even the P30 in SA has a long reset to give a longer trigger pull. But, I do shoot/train a lot. I just hope it's enough so that I shoot and hit what I need to when I need to and don't shoot when I don't intend to.
Lastly (about time huh!) if you go with the P250, you may not find 'accessories' quite as readily available. You'll have a harder time finding 'off the shelf' holsters, but most of the name brand custom holster manufacturers do make holsters for the P250.
The P250 sights are another consideration. The rear sight is quite unique and may be harder to find sights to fit it.
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
Thank you so much for such a long and detailed response. So to sum up, it looks like the DAK and DAO is the way to go especially from a safety and proficiency perspective. I have a few follow up questions.
1) I've heard that with the Sig P250 you feel much more of the recoil because of the polymer frame (as opposed to the metal frames on the other Sigs) and the lightness of the gun (around 25 ounces). Is that true? The problem is I can't rent this gun and feel the recoil myself. I would be buying blind.
2) All of the gun sales people I talk to don't understand why I want the DAK trigger since I am not a LEO. One person even said that they don't make the Sig P229 in DAK anymore. Is that true?
3) I am sorry but I didn't get what you meant about the P250 sights. If it comes with rear sights, why would I want another? Is the rear sight not adequate? Also, I don't plan to carry (currently) so a proper fitting holster would not be a consideration.
Thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions.
1- Not sure what happened on the center. That's 5 shots each at 3, 5, 7, 10, and 15 yds. The four off to the side were the 15 yard shots - nice group, just off to the side.
2- The head shot is 25 rapid fire, not really blazing, but not slow either, at 7 yards.
3- The neck shots are 25 rapid fire at 7 yds.
In the following pic,
1- Same as 1 above but you can see I corrected the 'left' issue at 15 yds, notice all but one shot is in the X ring, maybe that was bad ammo???
2- Head and neck shots are 25 rapid fire shots on each dot at 7 yds
3- the chest shots are 25 rapid fire shots at 10 yds
I'm not saying everyone can shoot the P250 like that, some might be better.............thinking..........well that might be a bit of a stretch..............some might not shoot the P250 as well, but the gun is a shooter!
What's not evident in the pics is how easy it was.
Gun sales people don't understand a lot of stuff - no offense to those that do know their business, but a lot don't.
The P250 does come with good sights and usually night sights, so that really isn't an issue unless you want some special kind of sight.
I'm pretty happy with the stock sig night sights that come with them.
The P229/6 series costs significantly more than a P250, and some will say you get what you pay for, but then Glocks cost significantly less than the P229/6 series as well. I like the P250 trigger better than the DAK, but that's just me personally.
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
Tangle, thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions so thoroughly and with pictures too. Looks like you had a lot of fun at the gun range today! You must be retired to be able to take time off on a weekday. Your groupings are awesome. I will have to show you mine after a year or so (when I can actually shoot some decent groupings) and after I figure out how to upload pictures.
What I didn't mention before in my postings is that I am considering buying 3 guns. Based on our conversation so far I am leaning towards the following ones: 1) Sig P229 with night sights in DAK 2) Sig P250 2Sum with night sights and 3) Sig P239 with night sights in DAK. Basically what I needed to figure out was: should I choose DAK over DA/SA? and is the recoil on the P250 manageable? It seems that the answer to both questions is yes. You've giving me the confidence to proceed forward with the purchases. The difficulty in buying a gun is that one can't try it out beforehand in many cases so you are buying blind (so to speak). I am counting on Sig's quality reputation that the P229 and P239 will be just as good as the P226 I shot.
I will read the other postings on this forum but won't be able to contribute much because of my inexperience. If anyone has questions about investing , on the other hand, those I can answer (but this isn't the forum for it though!).