This is a discussion on Do you have laser grips? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm Thats bad too. If you pull it you better use it, or have a pressing need too. Bottom line is either ...
Yes, I have laser grips
No, I don't have laser grips
I'm against them
A way to say that he "knew" you had a gun pointed at him and the visual and verbal command was given and he still decided to advance.
I'm sure theres a ton of holes in my logic, but thats the thought I have.
Glock 26 9mm, Ruger LCR .357mag
"Protect yourself at all times."
"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."-Clint Smith
There are numerous documented cases of suspects being belligerent and uncooperative, even with weapons pointed at them...until a weapon with a laser is aimed at them. Then, suddenly, they become very docile and give up.
Why? Because humans have an innate ability to deny reality. "That guy won't really shoot me. If he does try to shoot me, he'll miss." The laser eliminates the psychological ability of the bad guy to deny the reality that he is about to get shot, and the bullet is going to hit right there.
Aim a weapon with a laser at a mirror. You will clearly see the red laser diode light up. Yes indeed, the BG will see the laser too.
Of course, you should not draw your weapon unless you are legally justified in firing it. However, the decision to draw is one decision, the decision to fire is another separate and distinct decision. MOST situations are resolved merely by drawing your weapon without a shot being fired. If the laser increases the chance of that happening, then so much the better for everyone concerned.
Clearly, some of you who refuse to see any utility in lasers have not taken the time to read the after-action reviews from folks who have used them in actual combat situations. Again I ask...has anyone actually used a laser in a combat situation, and later decided that the laser was either ineffective or actually detrimental, and then stopped using the laser? I don't know of any. The naysayers have usually never actually used them in a real-world situation.
I want to call mostly-BS on the intimidation value of the red dot during a fight. The truth is, bad guys don't go around contemplating their navels on the street, so they don't see the dot if it is on their chest. Unlike the magazine ads, there is no red line form the laser to the target, unless there is fog or dust in the air. I believe most private citizen encounters to be so fast and quick that the act of announcing to the bad guy that he should look at his chest for a red dot, is simply not going to happen. Most of the bozos I have lit up with the X26 had no idea the X26 was in play until they felt the, uh, conducted energy. In fact, if a bad guy does see the laser, the red dot helps him stay out of the path of the darts. Remember, action beats reaction. If a bad guy sees the dot on his body, he can twist away faster than the good guy can perceive the change in the equation, and pull the trigger, whether Taser or firearm.
How do I know this? I use lasers on X26 Tasers regularly. The Taser is mandated when I am in a uniform, and the lasers on the Tasers are probably why my commanders do not allow lasers on our firearms. (Is that red dot my Taser, or my partner's Glock? Hmm... Yeah, I know, we could have green lasers on the guns, and red lasers on the Tasers, but rules are rules.) I have conducted energy about half a dozen times, one of which was a clear substitute for deadly force. I haven't yet had one surrender at the sight of a red dot, though several have surrendered when they saw/heard the Taser popping clear of the holster.
To be clear, a red dot CAN be an intimidation tool, but it might well not, and I hate to see a good guy hang his hopes on a false hope. A laser is an aiming aid; any other effect is a bonus.
Your second point is also valid - nothing is guaranteed. However, I personally would rather have the possibility in my favor.
Some testimonials from LEOs (these are from the Lasermax website):
From a Law Enforcement Officer in ALASKA
I had one of these [Lasermax laser] when I was in the US Marines in Iraq, and now am an Arkansas State Trooper and would like to purchase one for my Glock model 21. I used this in Iraq and this was a HUGE scare tactic to the enemy they saw the laser and would give up in a second!! - USMC ret., now LE in AK
From a Law Enforcement Officer in Kentucky
It made a believer out of me. It save at least one man's life, as he was charging me in a junk yard with his welding gear on and a metal pipe in hand! It was dark, and I don't know that he would have seen my Glock pointed at him, but without question he saw the Laser Max; he stopped cold,
dropped the pipe, and threw his hands in the air.
From a Law Enforcement Officer in Tennessee
I have utilized my Lasermax twice in the past three months, once while I had to shoot out a suspect's tire as he was trying to run me over, and then on a felony pursuit/ stop where I almost had to fire at the driver. Being a firearms/SWAT instructor, I find your product among one of the best I have ever purchased. It is without a doubt the best aiming assist tool I have ever used, and helps greatly in instant target acquisition, and the physcological benefit is outstanding.
From a Law Enforcement Officer in Illinois
I was assigned to a "S.C.A.T.T." unit, which was a high-profile unit focusing on high-crime areas. I was partnered with another Officer and we responded to a report of a suspicious vehicle in a Housing Complex. My partner and I responded and found two white males sitting in a vehicle in the Housing Complex parking lot. The registration indicated the vehicle was stolen.
My partner and I exited our marked patrol unit and approached the suspect vehicle. The two male occupants of the vehicle looked at us and began reaching under the front seats of the suspect vehicle. My partner and I gave loud verbal commands, identifying ourselves as Police and ordering the two males to show us their hands. My partner and I had drawn our duty pistols, (Glock model 23's), when the two males began reaching under the front seat of the suspect vehicle.
The two males looked at my partner and me, and saw that we had our weapons pointed at them. It did not seem to faze them at all. After looking at us and seeing that we had our weapons pointed at them, while my partner and I continued to issue verbal commands to the two male suspects, they continued to reach under the front seat.
I activated my Lasermax sight as I continued to aim my pistol at the driver of the suspect vehicle. The only difference was, now there was a bright red pulsating dot on the center of the driver's chest. The driver finally noticed the dot, and it was like someone had thrown a switch in his brain. The driver's hands went up so high and so fast, I thought that he would punch through the roof of the vehicle. His cohort looked over to see what had caused his partner's reaction, and then he saw the dot. His reaction was identical to his partner's.
My partner and I were able to take both subjects into custody without further incident. I have to believe that it was in large part to the compliance factor induced directly by the suspect seeing the pulsating red dot on their own anatomy.
This incident occurred about six years ago, and I have used my Lasermax sight countless times since, numerous times on suspects in vehicles with weapons visible and accessible to the suspects. All of the suspects have been compliant when I activated my Lasermax laser sight. [emphasis added] The response has been so positive that our Departmental Tactical Response Team has issued a Lasermax laser sight to all team members. A number of our Uniformed Patrol Officers have purchased their own Lasermax sights.
Illinois, Police Dept.
There's more (these particular testimonials mainly just go over the psychological advantages of lasers), but hopefully these make the point. Of course, there will still be those who say lasers are useless, and have no merit, blah blah blah. Whatever.
Horse...water...drink...or not - your choice.
Edit - Here's a good one regarding aiming benefits of lasers:
In July of this year while off duty I was involved in a deadly force confrontation with a man and your laser saved my life and the lives of others. I had gone to a restaurant to eat with my family when a man came in and kidnapped his ex-wife at gunpoint. Also present was his mother, his 6 year old son, and other patrons. With a crowded area this made the danger level that much more. I drew my weapon and activated the laser in one movement and ordered the man to drop the gun. He immediately pulled his ex-wife in front of him to use her as a shield and turned his gun on me. I had very little target area and knew there were at least 5 people in his line of fire including a small child. Had I not had your laser sight on my weapon the outcome would have been totally different. I would have never fired my weapon. He had covered at least 95% of his body by using his ex-wife as a shield but I was able to immediately acquire my only safe target without hesitation and fire. His right hip was exposed and I was able to successfully hit him in that area knocking him to the ground and disarming him. - Police Officer, AL
These testimonials don't seem very impressive. They appear contrived and even suspect; just what might be found in advertising by a company attempting to market their products.
Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"
“No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”
Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893
Do I need it? No. Is it beneficial? Absolutely. Acquiring a target is much faster no matter how you look at it
I have Crimson Trace Corporation ( CTC ) Lasers on 5 of my handguns:
The 642 I got my wife has them on. I shoot better with them than without - at least at the range with the 642, not sure about any other time yet. I'm undecided if they'll stay but so far they seem to be helpful.
My M&P came with CT's. After shooting with it a few times, I took them off...now it's a cat toy.
If you like 'em, good for you...I personally think that they're overrated, distracting, and not nearly as intimidating as the advertising literature would have you believe.
Also--if you use them, you could easily get dependent on them. When at the range, practicing failure drills with a friend, I had him start randomly switching the laser on/off as well as loading dummy rounds; I found that if that red dot didn't come on, it took me a second or so to transition to my sights because I was looking for the red dot; if I know it was off, though...well, I just went straight to sights. To me, this could be a bad thing if you drew your weapon for real, and didn't see that red dot...
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH
...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper
There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm
The point of my analogy is that someone is reacting slow when their car has to alert them to stop, just the same finding a laser to line up might seem faster but I can use front sight picture and get off a shot that "hits" COM pretty much in the same time frame. I really do think that people see lasers in movies and tv shows and think it's "cool" and whatnot. It can help some people sure, like those who cannot see iron sights on a revolver. However, there are clear reasons to not rely too heavily on them all the time.
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.
Ever had a set of sights that needed to be adjusted?
Ever had a front sight come off?
The only difference between a laser and a front site is the laser is on the target, not 30 inches in front of you. You don't have to pause to line up the laser anymore than you have to pause to index the front sight.
And yes a laser is a great help with those that have a vision problem. The biggest advantage that the laser has is that the eyes only have to focus on one distance. The human eye has problems focusing at different distances at the same
To me a laser is just a natural progression in the systems used to align a weapon. Is it the perfect answer? Maybe not. But it's use is becoming more widely used. Remember those new fangeled "nite sights"?