Gun Philosophy Internal Conflict

This is a discussion on Gun Philosophy Internal Conflict within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 10thmtn FWIW...interesting bit of data presented a few weeks ago on the "Don't Be a Vctim" TV shows on Spike TV: When ...

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    FWIW...interesting bit of data presented a few weeks ago on the "Don't Be a Vctim" TV shows on Spike TV:

    When a gun was drawn for self defense, there was 1 attacker 25% of the time; 2 attackers 50% of the time; and 3 or more attackers 25% of the time.

    So, 75% of the time a gun was drawn, there were multiple attackers.

    Just something to consider.
    Excellent point.
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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Tangle - You are correct about suppressive fire. It was used by an off-duty LEO to keep an active shooter pinned down until more officers could arrive on scene...the Trolley Square shooting.

    With terrorist organizers telling their minions to stop trying (and failing) to make bombs, and instead to just get guns and go shoot people in crowded public places, the potential need to lay down some fire so your family can extricate themselves from a bad situation is on the rise.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    Once I found that I gravitated towards my 5-shot 642 over my semi-auto (XD40 4") when choosing my carry gun for that day, I just doubled down on practicing with the 642. Lots of rounds, lots of reloads at the range from speed strips only. I became very proficient in shot placement (when moving and when static) and with the reloading from the strips (using a 2x2 format, forgoing the 5th or 6th cartridge to VASTLY speed up and simplify the reload). Draw practice consisted of drawing from the pocket holster with unloaded gun from both standing and sitting positions (more difficult but not impossible when sitting). I practice dumping 3 rounds into the target as quickly as possible, reassess, and fire the next two, reload, etc...

    I guess that once I found the 642 fit my needs and lifestyle more than the pistol, I decided I had to become more proficient to become more confident. Now, I don't even think about the potential tradeoffs between the J Frame and the XD.

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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    FWIW...interesting bit of data presented a few weeks ago on the "Don't Be a Vctim" TV shows on Spike TV:

    When a gun was drawn for self defense, there was 1 attacker 25% of the time; 2 attackers 50% of the time; and 3 or more attackers 25% of the time.

    So, 75% of the time a gun was drawn, there were multiple attackers.

    Just something to consider.
    Say when does that show come on? I would really like to view that program. I apologize to the OP, I really don't intend to hijack your thread.
    God bless our troops!

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    FWIW...interesting bit of data presented a few weeks ago on the "Don't Be a Vctim" TV shows on Spike TV:

    When a gun was drawn for self defense, there was 1 attacker 25% of the time; 2 attackers 50% of the time; and 3 or more attackers 25% of the time.

    So, 75% of the time a gun was drawn, there were multiple attackers.

    Just something to consider.
    I got to thinking about this and in addition to the observation 10thmtn already made about multiple attackers being involved 75% of the time, there are some other interesting ways to look at this.

    First, the chance of being confronted by three or more attackers is exactly the same as the chance of being confronted by only one attacker!

    Second, one is twice as likely to be confronted by two attackers than by a single attacker!

    Like 10thmtn said, "...something to consider."
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  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by crzy4guns View Post
    Say when does that show come on? I would really like to view that program. I apologize to the OP, I really don't intend to hijack your thread.
    It's a block of 4 half-hour shows on Spike, 9-11 AM ET on Saturdays.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    FWIW...interesting bit of data presented a few weeks ago on the "Don't Be a Vctim" TV shows on Spike TV:

    When a gun was drawn for self defense, there was 1 attacker 25% of the time; 2 attackers 50% of the time; and 3 or more attackers 25% of the time.

    So, 75% of the time a gun was drawn, there were multiple attackers.

    Just something to consider.
    True, but one shot from my snubbie may scare three attackers away... remember, multiple attackers can be scared by a civilian deffending themselves with a gun. I understand the opposite can be said, and i would rather have a one on one fight, but the loud crack of my 38 + P fired in my direction would lead to some messy drawers. Bunker

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunker View Post
    True, but one shot from my snubbie may scare three attackers away... remember, multiple attackers can be scared by a civilian deffending themselves with a gun. I understand the opposite can be said, and i would rather have a one on one fight, but the loud crack of my 38 + P fired in my direction would lead to some messy drawers. Bunker
    I do agree to some extent with that, but one has to consider, what if that doesn't work, we now only have four rounds left. It seems pretty thin to hope one shot will scare away attackers, especially gang members or somebody high on something. I guess I'm reluctant to bet my life on a loud crack being an effective fight stopper. It could just make them run to cover, which could put us in an even more difficult position.
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  10. #54
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    In my opinion , if confronted by multiple attackers who may also be carrying firearms, regardless of the capacity of your weapon, you are outgunned and your best option is get out of there. If you are dealing with one attacker who is armed with a gun, more than likely things will be settled quickly and decisively with very few shots. On this scenario, the first accurately placed shot decides the winner/ loser.

    Round count can be comforting , but at the end of the day when I get off duty, I lock up my 15 shot g22 and put thy snubbie in my pocket to run errands in, and I always feel comfortable with that.

  11. #55
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    Yes, by all means it is always better to attempt to retreat but if that option is denied me then I won't be the one at the scene with all the problems. Call it what you may: either arrogance or else a case of "fools rushing in where the brave (with "adequate" round capacity) fear to tread, but even multiple attackers will have generated their own set of worries if they have caused a situation to deteriorate to the point that I am required to haul out my favorite six-shot revolver. I am confident that I can materially affect the situation to my benefit with those six shots. If I'm done in before I can deliver six shots then high capacity wouldn't have mattered anyway. Even if they have superior firepower they don't necessarily win if I can make a good hit.

    "...the first accurately placed shot decides the winner/ loser."

    While this isn't completely foolproof, given the fact that handguns are the weak sisters of the firearms world, it represents the very best hope for a desirable outcome. And yes, more "bullets" gives more opportunity for more accurately placed shots however it would be the extraordinary assailant(s) indeed who would be able to stand his ground with disregard his/their own safety in the face of determined resistance by someone cool-headed and skilled with a revolver.

    "It could just make them run to cover."

    Bad guys running for cover works for me. I'm certainly not carrying the fight to them at that point and can use their running to improve my position as well: putting some distance between me and them, going to cover, reloading, dialing 911, or maybe even getting clean away.

    I still remain unconvinced that the high-capacity semi-auto is the final word in fighting handguns. And, we still have vivid imaginations about personal self defense! Every self defense scenario doesn't involve standing out in the open, stark naked with no cover and and holding an empty revolver while being completely surrounded by a dozen drug-crazed gang members bent on mayhem while armed with Uzis and Glocks.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    ...And, we still have vivid imaginations about personal self defense!...
    What some call vivid imagination, another calls visualization and preparedness. We've seen stats, i.e. history, that show, based on previous encounters, not vivid imagination, that only 25% of the time does one encounter only one assailent. The same shows that from past occurances, 25% have been three or more assailents. That's not vivid imagination. The same stats show that 75% of the encounters were more than one assailent. That's not vivid imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    ...Every self defense scenario doesn't involve standing out in the open, stark naked with no cover and and holding an empty revolver while being completely surrounded by a dozen drug-crazed gang members bent on mayhem while armed with Uzis and Glocks.
    No one has so much as even alluded to such an extreme scenario. We've basically been talking about 1-3 three threats, the defender moving, the threats moving, and only partially exposed. How does that magically convert to standing in the open stark naked?

    No one has even hinted about being surrounded by a dozen thugs, in fact, being surrounded hasn't come up at all. No one has mentioned gang members armed with Uzis and Glocks.

    and now to all:
    Guys, clearly, we need to stop, step away,take a breath or two, and calm down. It's kinda lookin' like things are trying to heat up - let's not let that happen.

    Just because one prefers a hi cap gun does not mean he is any less of a shot than one that prefers a revolver. Nor does it mean he will pray and spray any quicker than a guy with a revolver will. He can spray and pray more, but if that's what he's prone to do, he'd do it with a revolver as well. Spray and pray is panic shooting and reflects the person, not the gun, guns don't panic.

    Some are convinced that they will hit everything they shoot at in a gunfight even if they're being shot at, they're moving, the threat(s) is moving, and if he's only partially disclosed - that's fine and their choice.

    Others are not as confident and factor in the possibilty that in defending their lives, they may miss some shots, get some poor hits as well as good hits.

    Carry what you will, but for revo guys you can always expect low capacity to come up and semi guys can always expect pray and spray to come up.

    If anyone is starting to feel like they can't post respectfully and calmly, I suggest you back away a little and cool off.
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  13. #57
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    The problem is you will not know how you will react unless you have been there, and that plays a significant role in dynamics of how it goes down. I think the reality is that most people choose their sidearm based on LEA trends and see's those as the very best for defensive purposes. While this is not wrong thinking, it is somewhat flawed in that the first consideration should be the application of the weapon, which makes it easier to pick the best choice for that persons uses. Many times there are tactical advantages to a snubby in your pocket with your hand inconspicuously on the grip that no hi cap in an IWB can afford. There are many considerations that many people disregard, and in my opinion, are short changing themselves in the way of practicality for their real world uses. This ability to thoughtfully and realistically choose the right weapon has been going on a long time, and is not been helped by the main stream gun media. Heres food for thought; there is a reason that LEO's take off their duty weapon and stick a snubby in their pocket when they get home. We have access to training with information on shootings included that shed a different light on the dynamics of real events. At some point, I think it is important to balance perception with the reality that one is more than likely to encounter. I am thankful for a country where we have that choice though.

  14. #58
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    Not all LEOs carry a stubby off duty. I'm not so sure even the majority of them do. Unless there's a study that indicates the percentages of who carries what off duty, we're just stating biased opinion. There have been LEOs post that they carry a gun similar to their duty weapon of duty, e.g. a G22 on duty and a G23 or 27 off duty. Some have posted that they carry a totally different type of semi off duty than they carry on duty, and some have posted that they carry their duty gun when off duty in a concealment holster.

    We can give scenarios that favor anything we want it to favor, but we can generally show that in other situations that same gun would not be the first choice. And it just goes on and on with one trying to out credential the other or think up some scenario to end all scenario to prove their point.

    My logic is simple, based on consistent training in a wide variety SD schools, and shooting/training some 100-150 rounds a week, I am unwilling to wind up in a gunfight with only 5 rounds in my gun. I want to take into account that missing is a real possibility - I've seen many well trained men that were excellent shots, miss under just the pressure of training. So whether I want to admit it or not, missing in a gunfight is a distinct reality and borne out by history.
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    Most of the officers I work with are like I am, so tired of packing the weight around all day that yes, the ones I know and work with stick a j frame in our pockets when running errands or what not. On the golf course , when we all get together, that's what we are all carrying. Of course I can't speak for everyone everywhere, but that's the truth in my circles.

    It really doesn't matter to me what or why people carry. Everyone makes up their own minds based on their experience, ideas and philosophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    No you understood correctly. If you are shooting at someone in self defense, you should and better make the shot. If we take the 7 yard theory that is so common, if you cant hit someone at that distance, you should not be shooting. As the range increases, as a private citizen, your reasoning diminishes also, and the more it is expected that you remove yourself from the situation, hypothetically of course. I don't know what kind of crap the new gurus having been teaching, but if you cant make your first shot a hit, you should leave the guns at home and go back to video games.
    I've never been in a gunfight and I pray I never am, but your statements strike me as completely unrealistic. I can take the sights of my Glock and hit center of mass on a silhouette target as 7 yards at a decent rate of fire with no problems. I have done this to prove it to myself. However, I am absolutely certain that my shooting would not be this good shooting one handed while trying to dodge bullets. They idea that I should not shoot at some one who is trying to kill me because I might miss is just ridiculous.

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