Let's Have a Caliber Fight

Let's Have a Caliber Fight

This is a discussion on Let's Have a Caliber Fight within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; No seriously, I want to hear all the good and the bad of the 380 all the way up to the 45ACP. I'm new to ...

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Thread: Let's Have a Caliber Fight

  1. #1
    New Member Array NYReload's Avatar
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    Let's Have a Caliber Fight

    No seriously, I want to hear all the good and the bad of the 380 all the way up to the 45ACP.

    I'm new to the board and see some replies to my other post about my secondary pistol and I keep reading things like "9mm is fine, cops use it, but I don't want to have a cliber fight." It seems things get ugly when it comes to talking caliber/

    I'm very new to pistols and I want to have that argument. I went from thinking I wanted a 9mm and perhaps a 38 as a back up because I heard the same argument that NATO cops and the US forces use the 9mm.

    THen I read an article "The Case for the 45 ACP" or something to that affect. Written by a cop who went into how even 45ACP is not enough power but it is the best choice. He went on to explain how one Miami cop could not take down a man after some 22 shots with a 9mm all Center Mass.

    There are of course trade offs in everything and you can't have it all. 45 doesn't allow for concealability, mag cap AND ease of use.

    Either you get a big honkin' 1911 steel frame which is a pleasure to shoot with it's but you give up comfort and probably will leave it at home.

    You can get a lighter one, but you give up ease of use and hurt your hands.

    You can have a high cap 9mm but don't have that security in knowing you have a better man stopper.

    THe 40 cal is a nice medium, but again, you don't have the 45.

    Yes, there is much to be said about shot placement, but under stress and while a guy is shooting back, shot placement becomes something of a roll of the dice, I don't care who you are.

    I have been looking at the 40s out there, mostly the glock 27 and kahr pm40 (some of you may know my other post) but have looked at the Colt defender and glock 36 as 45 options but don't like the 6+1 mag cap (keep in mind I can't have more than 10 round mags).

    Add to this my back up needs, I like the size of 380s and even 32s but would like at least a 9mm

    If anyone has had experiance in an actual gun fight, please don't be shy, let us know your experiance with the caliber you chose, but I understand if that is a sensative issue.

    Hope to hear some good discussions.
    Last edited by NYReload; December 2nd, 2010 at 09:55 AM.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array NY27's Avatar
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    By your screen name, I take it that you choose to carry a second gun over a spare mag. This topic has been beaten to death countless times. I'm a PO w/ 15 years OTJ and I carry 9,40 or 45 on any given day. Duty weapon is a G23 (.40), off-duty is usually a 27. But I feel confident carrying my 19 (9mm) as well.

    Accuracy can suffer under stress, you are right. But a miss of the CNS is still a miss. It doesn't make much difference if it was a 9, 40 or 45. Yeah Yeah, bigger holes bleed more, but not in enough time to stop an immediate threat.

    Practice with what you carry, pick a good SD load and you'll be fine.
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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    I recommend the function to folks who are new to the board...there is a host of good information and discussion that has already addressed this. Read up on what is already available, and then come back for questions.

    Caliber doesn't matter if you don't have the right shot placement.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  4. #4
    Member Array glockfan23's Avatar
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    I have to say better than 40, or 45 acp is the 10 mm , you can get the same ballistic result as a 357 magnum if you make full loads

  5. #5
    Member Array 3rik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYReload View Post
    No seriously, I want to hear all the good and the bad of the 380 all the way up to the 45ACP.

    I'm new to the board and see some replies to my other post about my secondary pistol and I keep reading things like "9mm is fine, cops use it, but I don't want to have a cliber fight." It seems things get ugly when it comes to talking caliber/

    I'm very new to pistols and I want to have that argument. I went from thinking I wanted a 9mm and perhaps a 38 as a back up because I heard the same argument that NATO cops and the US forces use the 9mm.

    THen I read an article "The Case for the 45 ACP" or something to that affect. Written by a cop who went into how even 45ACP is not enough power but it is the best choice. He went on to explain how one Miami cop could not take down a man after some 22 shots with a 9mm all Center Mass.

    There are of course trade offs in everything and you can't have it all. 45 doesn't allow for concealability, mag cap AND ease of use.

    Either you get a big honkin' 1911 steel frame which is a pleasure to shoot with it's but you give up comfort and probably will leave it at home.

    You can get a lighter one, but you give up ease of use and hurt your hands.

    You can have a high cap 9mm but don't have that security in knowing you have a better man stopper.

    THe 50 cal is a nice medium, but again, you don't have the 45.

    Yes, there is much to be said about shot placement, but under stress and while a guy is shooting back, shot placement becomes something of a roll of the dice, I don't care who you are.

    I have been looking at the 40s out there, mostly the glock 27 and kahr pm40 (some of you may know my other post) but have looked at the Colt defender and glock 36 as 45 options but don't like the 6+1 mag cap (keep in mind I can't have more than 10 round mags).

    Add to this my back up needs, I like the size of 380s and even 32s but would like at least a 9mm

    If anyone has had experiance in an actual gun fight, please don't be shy, let us know your experiance with the caliber you chose, but I understand if that is a sensative issue.

    Hope to hear some good discussions.
    Honestly, I think a fair amount of people (myself included) find a caliber and weapon combo that they can carry and shoot well. They THEN move on to enlarging, discussing and then vehemently defending (while making up new ones) the reasons for their choice.

    The rest of 'em are the people who realize this and stay away from the topic. If they're like me they ended up getting whatever they were told not to get.

    That being said, get the 9mm. Best round ever, EVER known to man. Period. No way to argue it. Any other Tom Foolery is a waste of time and money. How do I know? Because that was my choice.
    "Obviously you're not a golfer." -The Dude

  6. #6
    New Member Array NYReload's Avatar
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    I was watching nutnfancy on youtube and he was discussing the glock 30, he's a 9mm NUT, and crazy about even the smallest amounts of size or weight increases, he tries to shave ounces off of everything.

    He liked the 30, liked the weight, the shootability, and mag cap. He did have issues with the width but said it was part of having a bigger gun. art of my reason for not wanting a 27 or other 40s and just settling on that is the expensive 40 sw round.

  7. #7
    Member Array 3rik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYReload View Post
    I was watching nutnfancy on youtube and he was discussing the glock 30, he's a 9mm NUT, and crazy about even the smallest amounts of size or weight increases, he tries to shave ounces off of everything.

    He liked the 30, liked the weight, the shootability, and mag cap. He did have issues with the width but said it was part of having a bigger gun. art of my reason for not wanting a 27 or other 40s and just settling on that is the expensive 40 sw round.
    Plenty to keep one's mind occupied for sure.

    Here: Great discussions to peruse..

    And then you can open up a whole new can of beans: here...
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  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYReload View Post

    I'm very new to pistols and I want to have that argument.

    So can we assume that you are totally new to pistols, and this will be your first handgun?

    Seems like a small 9mm would be in order, since you state a preference for small guns and want at least a 9mm.

    Kahr makes the most popular small 9mm. I would not recommend a Kahr in .40 S&W myself, though, based on my personal experience in owning a Kahr P40. I found the gun to be difficult to shoot, with an usually troublesome recoil to deal with. I sold the gun after a few months, and have since purchased a Walther PPS in .40 S&W, which I found far more comfortable and easier to shoot accurately.

    The beauty of the Walther PPS is that it basically functions just like a Glock, even having the same type of easy takedown system that the Glock has. So if you teamed it ( whether in 9mm or .40 S&W ) as a backup gun for a Glock, you would have two guns that pretty much operate and even disassemble the same way. In contrast, the trigger systems on the Kahr pistols, while perfectly fine on their own, feel totally different than the trigger that a Glock has.






    If you want the maximum ammo versatility, consider getting a Glock 27 as your primary gun. There are a number of companies that make special conversion barrels specifically for the Glock 27, to allow that gun to be converted to either 9mm or .357 SIG. So just replacing the G27 barrel, and using a 9mm mag instead of one for .40 S&W, you could then shoot 9mm out of the Glock 27 too. Thus giving you two different caliber guns for just a little more than the price of one gun.

    Companies like Bar-Sto and Storm Lake both make such conversion barrels.

    http://www.barsto.com/

    http://www.stormlakebarrel.com/barrels


    .
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  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Handgun selection:
    Select similiar size pistols for comparison: Glock 26,27,19,23,30 and Colt Lightweight Commander, Kimber Ultra
    Shoot 9mm, 40, & 45 side by side using a shot timer and carry ammunition.One pistol is very likely to perform better than the others as measured by the timer, be sure to include an accuracy component and shots outside the alloted area won't be counted toward the "qualifying" double taps that are averaged.

    There isn't a caliber fight. You have a lightweight, a middleweight and a heavyweight. If this was MMA they wouldn't ever get to fight in the same octagon.

    I did do the above "test" and under my imposed accuracy limit (at the same set distance) the Lightweight Commander and Glock 19 emerged as the quickest pistols (in my hands) to deliver an accurate 2nd shot. Those are two very different pistols, but 2nd shot times were identical using carry ammo and equivalent sights.
    The 1911 is thinner and more comfortable to carry IWB, launches a bigger bullet, and became the choice of carry for someone that had previously always carried a Glock 40. I didn't do as well with the 40 I'd been packing as the other pistols, go figure; it must have something to do with recoil impulse or inherient accuracy.
    When I carry the 1911 I carry an extra magazine, something I had not done with the higher capacity Glock(s) so I do not feel hindered by the capacity.
    I don't have to wish I carried a bigger bullet either.
    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array alachner's Avatar
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    Here we go again.

    If you need a caliber larger than .45 ACP you are not in a self-defense situation and you are probably in the middle of a shootout or in combat and you will probably be best in the hands of a carbine or a shotgun. If caliber and mag capacity is the main thing, then we would all be carrying around AK-47's or AR-15's. Many people in this or other forum will tell you that you should carry .45 ACP, 10mm, 44 Mag or even .50 caliber because they are the best "man stoppers" and so forth, but the bottom line is that the majority of users in this forum (including myself) have never been in a gun fight. Therefore, how can we attest to stopping power if we have never had to use our handguns for self-defense? Sure, there are tons of Forums, magazines, scientific studies and so forth. But only a few have seen "the white elephant" come at them and have used their guns to stop them. I personally have seen perpetrators stopped by 2 shots in the chest with a Glock 26 9mm, thugs killed by one shot of .38+P, a rapist killed by three shots of .380 ACP and accidental deaths caused by pistols in .22lr. So what is the ideal caliber? In my opinion, the best caliber is the one that you can shoot well and accurate with in a gun that is easy to conceal yet not small enough that it hinders your accuracy. And what is the key for self defense? Accuracy and shot placement.

    Therefore, if you can shoot accurately and consistently with a .380 ACP but not with a 9mm or higher caliber then perhaps you should carry a .380 ACP. But if you do shoot well with a higher caliber and you can conceal it without a problem, more power to you. Just choose the gun that you can handle and shoot well and also comfortable be able to carry 24/7. Remember, any gun on you is better than a huge high caliber gun in your safe or car.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]

  11. #11
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    I know it's less fun than a heated caliber war, but I'd like to suggest the following:

    1. Regardless of the cartridge used, the application is the same - shoot until the threat stops.
    2. Skill (being able to get hits) is more important than cartridge.
    3. Shot placement is more important than cartridge.
    4. A practitioner of defensive pistol would be far better server doing some drawing or dry-fire drills than spending that engaging in another bout of cartridge wars.

    Matt
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    I know it's less fun than a heated caliber war, but I'd like to suggest the following:

    1. Regardless of the cartridge used, the application is the same - shoot until the threat stops.
    2. Skill (being able to get hits) is more important than cartridge.
    3. Shot placement is more important than cartridge.
    4. A practitioner of defensive pistol would be far better server doing some drawing or dry-fire drills than spending that engaging in another bout of cartridge wars.

    Matt
    Amen Matt, Amen!
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    You need to carry the caliber you shoot best.

    What I've found is the alleged differences in recoil from 9mm up to .45 ACP are exaggerated. Sure, they're not all equal, they're just different. It's not like the .40 or .357 SIG kicks like a .44 mag when compared (or used to) the 9mm Luger.

    I've wanted a .45ACP as far back as I can remember (and that's a long way), so now I have one. I'm quite happy with it, enjoy reloading for it, and its (my) accuracy ... well, that's a work in progress. Best job I ever had.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    You need to carry the caliber you shoot best.

    What I've found is the alleged differences in recoil from 9mm up to .45 ACP are exaggerated. Sure, they're not all equal, they're just different. It's not like the .40 or .357 SIG kicks like a .44 mag when compared (or used to) the 9mm Luger.

    I've wanted a .45ACP as far back as I can remember (and that's a long way), so now I have one. I'm quite happy with it, enjoy reloading for it, and its (my) accuracy ... well, that's a work in progress. Best job I ever had.
    Absolutely - you're doin' good!

    I would have to disagree about recoil though. I shoot a bunch; not particularly sensitive to recoil, but I can feel a significant difference in the recoil of a .45 and 9mm.

    I took a G21 to Blackwater and a buddy went with me with a P226 9mm. I was very pleased with my performance with the G21. Then along about Thursday, my buddy wanted to swap guns to try the G21. I was surprised at the difference, I shot faster and quicker, honestly I didn't want to swap back, and he was ready to in a minute. I'm not saying the difference in recoil is all that bad, and I myself carry a P250 .45ACP and a 1911 on occassion, but there is a signficant difference, well to me.
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    My vote is for the 22 rimfire. Accurate, deadly way beyond it's size and cheap!

    No, just kidding lest of you who know me think I have gone crazy!

    Pick something middle ground that you shoot well, auto or revolver. The most important thing after that is practice, practice and train.

    There is no really such a thing as "the best" caliber, but "the best" application of caliber.

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