M&P40c Update

[shockwave]

Here be ships passing in the night.

While our faithful correspondent Rollo is making the transition from semiauto carry to revolver, yours truly has converted from revolver to semiauto.

That's for CCW. For HD it's revolver all the way. If it's down to the last stand of home defense and I absolutely must defend my castle, the 686+ loaded with .357 DPX is the best I can come up with short of the Mossberg with #1 Buck.

For street carry and CCW defense, I'm liking 18 rounds of 9mm DPX and so far the SR9c has been flawless at the range. Still, I'm saving up now for a 638 2.5in.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[10thmtn]

Taurus 709 - Yeah, I know, no big surprise there...
Sig 239
XD9sc
Kimber Custom II

Wow. Not surprised at the issues with the Taurus or the Kimber. I am surprised that you had issues with the Sig and the XD. Sorry if you've posted this before, but care to elaborate?

I carried a SP101 for a while, but I never could get rid of the nagging doubt about having only 5 shots available, even if those were .357 Mag (which is really just a 9mm ++P ).

Like we discussed in the other thread, the number of rounds you start the fight with is one of the few things you can control in a fight - your accuracy, the terminal effect of your rounds, the number and determination of your opponents, etc - all are subject to too many variables to predict with any certainty what the outcome will be.

I predict this though...within the next year, you will be carrying a Glock. If I'm wrong, let me know, and I'll give you a public apology on this forum.

Have a Merry Christmas!

[18DAI]

Rollo, as an old revolver guy who was forced by agency policy to go to bottom feeders, I encourage you to look at the Ruger SR9c and any HK, S&W 3rd generation pistol, or Glock compact. They are as reliable as ANY of my wheel guns.

Don't let the M&P put you off semi auto's. Good luck! Regards 18DAI.

[Rollo]

Wow. Not surprised at the issues with the Taurus or the Kimber. I am surprised that you had issues with the Sig and the XD. Sorry if you've posted this before, but care to elaborate?

I carried a SP101 for a while, but I never could get rid of the nagging doubt about having only 5 shots available, even if those were .357 Mag (which is really just a 9mm ++P ).

Like we discussed in the other thread, the number of rounds you start the fight with is one of the few things you can control in a fight - your accuracy, the terminal effect of your rounds, the number and determination of your opponents, etc - all are subject to too many variables to predict with any certainty what the outcome will be.

I predict this though...within the next year, you will be carrying a Glock. If I'm wrong, let me know, and I'll give you a public apology on this forum.

Have a Merry Christmas!

I had extractor issues with the XD and constant failures to feed (with all types of factory ammo) with the 239.

I felt very much the same about only having 5 shot's available when I started carrying the SP101. There was a pretty good discussion running in my original thread where I stated exactly what you said about not knowing if I could get over the nagging doubt. I found that the more I carried the SP101 the less the capacity mattered to me. There's also a post floating around here someplace that I will attempt to find where a member (might have been bugdude) searched through records of civilian self defense shootings and could not find a single one where more then 5 rounds were fired.

I'll do you one better. I'll guarantee you that I will own a Glock within a year. Actually, It will probably be with in 2 months (yay tax return!). It will be either a 19 or a 23. It will be my primary night stand gun and the gun I strap on if I have to go to a higher danger AO. I'm not saying I don't like auto's. I'm even saying I don't trust auto's (As long as it says Glock on it...) I'm saying that for the role of primary CCW 5 shot's of .357 is statistically and historically proven to end a civilian lethal force confrontation in the VAST majority of circumstances better then any other handgun round available.

Something else I considered. I could technically carry a Glock 36 (.45 being my other favorite handgun round) but because of the length of the handle I would have to change my wardrobe. The SP101 just carries better on my frame.

[tkruf]

Rollo, I can understand where you're coming from and going to with the way you feel after four auto's have had problems. That being said, I've had only one of my auto's "fail". I have owned at some point in time, an HK USP Compact 9mm, Ruger P95, Taurus PT99, Taurus PT940, Taurus PT140, Glock 22, Glock 23, a couple Ruger MkII's, XD40sc, Bersa Thunder .380, Beretta 21A, Kahr CW9 and PM9, XD9sc, Glock 26, and several Glock 19's.

The Beretta 21A was just total junk and would not feed anything. FTE's left and right. I've owned quite a few different revolvers also.

Out of all of these, most I've traded or sold because either I needed the money, or to get something different because I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (from the inside) with it. I just needed to practice is all to be honest with you.

The only one of these that ever failed was my Kahr CW9. The frame cracked around the trigger pivot pin not long ago. I called them up (not knowing the crack was even there). They said send it in. I did. They found the crack and rebuilt the gun on a brand new frame using all of the old parts from the old gun (the parts that nothing was wrong with that is). I got it back, and I still trust it. Have I test fired it since I got it back? No. Do I trust it? Yes. Is this stupid? maybe. But I know that Kahr's are good guns and even with the crack in the frame and the pivot pin backing out while firing, I was still able to empty 2 magazines of ammo down range before the pin would come out far enough to cause a functional problem.

I've had a lot of guns, both revolver and auto. The only failure: the Kahr CW9 which I still trust. Out of the rest of them, the HK USP 9 Compact had a stove pipe habit, the Beretta 21A lots of FTE's. All the rest of them were reliable, I just chose to trade or sell them for various reasons.

I'm sorry you've had problems with the auto's you've tried. If I remember correctly you said the problem you've had with the XD9sc was a bad ejector or extractor. You replaced the part and then your ex got the gun in the divorce I believe you said. But you still trusted it I assume.

Why not give the XD9sc another try? I know you said you didn't like the Glock because of the grip. I can see that. I like the grip much better on the XD9sc than the Glock 26. I think if you give the XD9sc another try, your faith will be renewed. Either that or get a Glock 26 and get a grip reduction done on it.

Just my .02 cents. You can't go wrong with a revolver like the sp101 either.

[10thmtn]

Rollo - I know of at least 3 civilian incidents where 5 shots were not enough.

1. Father emptied his revolver into a thug (who was armed with a shotgun) who forced his way into their truck. Fight continued hand-to-hand outside - father got the shotgun away from the thug and killed him with it. The father lost a kid in the fight...killed by one of the father's bullets.

2. Disabled man fires almost his whole mag into a huge bodybuilder thug who was on top of a police officer, trying to get the officer's pistol. The fight was only ended by a shot to the head at a distance of 3 feet. More than 5 shots were fired.

3. Defender armed with a .45 1911 emptied his pistol into an attacker (drunk neighbor) armed with a shotgun. All shots hit. Attacker only retreats when his shotgun jams, and he cannot clear it. He walks home (!) and is arrested.

I don't have faith in 5 shots out of anything that can be fired with only one hand.

You can perhaps argue "shot placement" in scenarios 1 & 2, but that is the point. In the real world, you (and I) may miss some times. And a hit may not hit a vital area.

If you are going to stick with the revolver, for God's sake...at least carry a back-up, even if it is "just" a LCP in your pocket. Then your Rugers can keep each other company.

One more thing - I would recommend you get the baby Glock in your caliber of choice. If you don't like the 9mm, you can get the .40, or .357 Sig, or even the oft-overlooked .45 GAP. You can always put in a larger mag and a longer barrel for HD duty if you wish. You can make the baby Glocks bigger, but you cannot make the bigger ones smaller.

[Rollo]

Rollo - I know of at least 3 civilian incidents where 5 shots were not enough.

1. Father emptied his revolver into a thug (who was armed with a shotgun) who forced his way into their truck. Fight continued hand-to-hand outside - father got the shotgun away from the thug and killed him with it. The father lost a kid in the fight...killed by one of the father's bullets.

2. Disabled man fires almost his whole mag into a huge bodybuilder thug who was on top of a police officer, trying to get the officer's pistol. The fight was only ended by a shot to the head at a distance of 3 feet. More than 5 shots were fired.

3. Defender armed with a .45 1911 emptied his pistol into an attacker (drunk neighbor) armed with a shotgun. All shots hit. Attacker only retreats when his shotgun jams, and he cannot clear it. He walks home (!) and is arrested.

I don't have faith in 5 shots out of anything that can be fired with only one hand.

You can perhaps argue "shot placement" in scenarios 1 & 2, but that is the point. In the real world, you (and I) may miss some times. And a hit may not hit a vital area.

If you are going to stick with the revolver, for God's sake...at least carry a back-up, even if it is "just" a LCP in your pocket. Then your Rugers can keep each other company.

One more thing - I would recommend you get the baby Glock in your caliber of choice. If you don't like the 9mm, you can get the .40, or .357 Sig, or even the oft-overlooked .45 GAP. You can always put in a larger mag and a longer barrel for HD duty if you wish. You can make the baby Glocks bigger, but you cannot make the bigger ones smaller.

In the first 2 circumstances I would be interested to know what caliber was being used. I would NOT rely on a 5 shot .38 or a 8 shot .380. Heck, my 9 shot S&W 908 9mm made me nervous. As far as the third goes... Bummer. Like I said though, the VAST majority... I really consider it a trade off. I'll give two examples

1. A attacker is closing on me and I only have time to get off 2 rounds before he's on me. I would much prefer those 2 rounds to be .357 as opposed to 9mm or .40 Advantage SP101

2. I put 5 rounds in someone and they aren't even phased and they keep attacking me. Yeah, then another 5 would REALLY be useful or the faster reload of a auto. Advantage Glock 26

However I have to ask. Which is the more likely situation for me to encounter? Having to defend myself and not having time to put 9 rounds in someone or putting 5 rounds in someone and them continuing to attack me? My general rule is to plan for the most likely circumstance. The most likely circumstance will be me getting off 2-3 rounds. If they made a .45 that wouldn't require me to change my entire wardrobe then I would carry it. But they don't so .357 is the next best thing. Actually, They do. It's the officers model 1911 HOWEVER they are notoriously finicky and after my luck with autos...

[fastk9dad]

I believe in scenario #2 it was a .45 if I'm thinking of the same story and recall it correctly.

[10thmtn]

Rollo - This has the danger of degenerating into another useless caliber war. If you have not seen this, I would suggest giving it a look:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...ctor%20Roberts

The point is that all handguns are marginal. All common calibers are very close in performance. Higher velocity is not always a good thing - it hampers your recovery time due to more recoil, it can cause under-penetration if the bullet over-expands and fragments, etc. The .357 and .45 are just not the hammers of Thor some seem to believe they are.

How many shots can you get off in time? Who knows. But I bet you can get more off with a 9mm than you can with a .357 - and you'll have more left over, just in case you need more.

In any case, we've had this discussion before. Stay safe out there!

[303british]

Rollo, I don’t think you are really giving up much by going with a revolver. If you are not in the military, or a police officer, you are ahead of the majority of people by carrying anything. The chances of needing to fire your gun are statistically small. The chances of needing more than 5 rounds even smaller than that. People will come up with anecdotal evidence to prove just about any point, but when it comes right down to it, having a gun you can trust, being able to shoot it well, and carrying it all the time, will serve you 99.9% of the time.
I have found myself using my snub nose for my daily carry for just those reasons. I always have it if I leave the house. I know it will work when I pull the trigger. I can hit anything at a reasonable distance very quickly with it the first time.
All of that is just my opinion of course, if you are comfortable with your choice that is all that matters.

[BugDude]

Why are semi-auto folks so threatened by revolvers? Why do they try so hard to convince someone else that the decision they have reached is so wrong? I carry both...and I say carry what you are comfortable with for your own reasons.

Scenario #2, a story in which I am very familiar, it was a 9mm. It was in the glove box of his truck when he came out of an Auto Zone and saw a man attacking a police officer after a minor traffic violation stop. He fired 4 shots into the person (although more total shots were fired). He fired into the back of the man's shoulder several times. The guy (a huge bodybuilder) would not stop banging the head of the officer on the pavement when he finally put one in his head at point blank range. The guy turned, stood up, and started to advance when he collapsed. His family filed a wrongful death civil suit. The officer testified on his behalf and he was found to be justified.

To me, it's not a good testiment to the defensive qualities of the 9mm round. The platform really didn't make much difference in this particular situation.