December 24th, 2010 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Guantes
As a grunt who has served more time 'over yonder' than I care to remember and having used a pistol in combat more times that I can count on both hands and almost both feet, I rarely had the chance to index the weapon into my line of sight before pulling the trigger.
The more techniques you can master, the better prepared you are for any eventuality that may happen to come.
December 24th, 2010 02:07 PM
There is a time and place for point shooting and for sighted shooting. It just depends on the circumstances. At bad breath distances you probably won't have time to aim and you may even have to shoot from retention. To discount either method of shooting is foolish as both methods have a place. Taking the time to learn and practice both methods well make you a well rounded and more prepared shooter and add one skill that may help you out.
As for night sights I think they are important. Just my experiences from camping shooting critters getting into camp I found a flashlight doesn't give enough light to see my sights. I could see my target but not the sights very well. Only after night sights was I able to see my sights.
December 24th, 2010 02:51 PM
Here is something written by my friend 7677 that speaks to the issue of the "Sight Continuum", a title that I believe was coined by him.
I find it interesting that many sight shooters disregard point/instinctive shooting, while few point shooters disregard sighted shooting. Both have a place within the arena of gunfighting.
The "Sight Continuum" is the guide to which shooting tactic and technique they will use.
The "Sight Continuum" starts with "hip shooting" and continues to the use of sights and we must remember that the urgency of making the shot and the distance to the target will be key in determining which method will be used. Also, other factors such as movement of your opponent(s) and yourself and the availability of cover will also play into which method you determine to use. In combat, I did not have to think about which method I would use as it just came to me.
The body is amazing as if you keep the weapon with the centerline of the body or the nose the mind will determine when to take the shot. All you have to do is focus on the spot you intend to hit. Your subconscious mind will worry about the alignment of the gun and the spot your focusing on. This is especially useful while shooting and moving fast. When I attempt to move and use aimed shooting, I have found that if I attempt to aim to make the same shot it slows me down as I have to consciously think about the front sight, the target, and when to fire. While I'm in the process of trying to align my front sight on the target I tend to slow down my movement in order to keep the front sight from bouncing and begin to get tunnel vision on the front sight. Were as, my focus should be on the target with my surrounding in my peripheral vision not on my front sight. Furthermore, on the squared range, there are usually no obstructions to trip over but in the real world there are many hazards one can find themselves negotiating in the middle of a gunfight. Aimed shooting comes at the end of my sighting continuum. Why because I can start to draw my weapon and anywhere in the steps of my draw I can point shoot off of body index or I can continue to bring the weapon up to eye level and make a precision shot. The steps of the draw that I use are the same with point shooting as with sighted shooting. Time (the urgency of making the shot) combined with distance will determine which method I use in the Sight Continuum.
Depending on the environment and my surrounding, I may step off
Line to my left or right and fire and then move in and fire, or move straight towards the target firing, or move behind cover and in limited circumstances hold my ground and put rounds in the target. There are too many circumstances to list but in most cases one wants to be mobile in a gunfight without cover and take the fight to the enemy.
From 0 to 3 yards, or at what is commonly referred to as bad breathe distance, a retention techniques needs to be employed. These Techniques rely heavily on body index and need very little hand/eye coordination.
From 3 to 5 yards, most people use techniques similar to Fairbairn's "Half Hip". With the Half Hip position, I use my body's centerline as an index with my gun in my peripheral vision. This technique relies on both body index and hand/eye coordination.
From 5 to 10 yards, I use either in one handed or two-handed point shooting, which will be under the line of sight, I use my nose as the index. The person uses the index to get the gun on target and the eye/hand coordination places the on the spot where the eyes are focused on.
NOTE: The above yard estimates are not absolute and will change do to shooter and/or target movement.
Indexing will only take you so far and with all point shooting techniques there still needs to be some degree of hand to eye coordination. The further away the target is from the shooter the shooter goes from relying on indexing and more to the ability of putting rounds on the spot where the eyes are focused on. It is similar to throwing a punch but only at an increased distance. Your fist is replaced by bullets. Index alone will get hits on the target out to 10 yards however you want your point of focus and your point aim to be on the same point (hand/eye coordination).
In point shooting, the index is very important just as it is with sighted shooting. The index gets the gun on target and with point shooting eye/hand coordination places the bullet on the same spot that the eyes are focused on and with sighted shooting the index gets the gun on target and the gun is brought a little further up to the point where the eyes pick up the sights and verify the gun is on target. As the distance increases, the effectiveness of indexing and eye/hand coordination decreases. From 10 to 15 yards I used front sight/ rough sight picture to get hits. However, since this summer, Brownie showed me that I'm faster and just an accurate at 15 yards with point shooting. I guess it would depend on the urgency of making the shot and the surrounding environment where I was making the shot.
I'm not exclusively a "Point Shooter" or a "Sighted Shooter" I simply use whatever method will allow me to go home at the end of the night.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
December 30th, 2010 02:13 AM
The attached link speaks to some of the back and forth discussion on this thread concerning sight versus point shooting and the effectiveness of both.
It is also by someone that has spent a considerable amount of time researching law enforcement and private citizen shootings.
December 30th, 2010 03:01 AM
I'll be as civil as I can be in my reply.
Originally Posted by JodyH
I am quite certain that Guantes has the ability to respond in a non-emotional and professional manner, and has already proven so by his reply to you and your asinine post. To not know the names Jordan or Bryce...
Now you may be the second coming of Robbie Leatham or even Col. Cooper, but I somehow doubt it. Guantes' post of 7677's essay on the matter helped to explain it very well. Another way of saying it is, "See what you need to see." The further, or smaller, your target, the more importance that is placed on sighted fire. Now I don't know what tacticool ninja school you graduated from, and frankly I don't much care. There is a variety of people that are members of this forum, and we are a like a large extended family, to a degree. We may not always agree, or get along but some, like that second cousin that is always in trouble with the law and a ne'er do well, are still welcome to sit down and partake of the Holiday meal. When you earn your way to second cousin status with me I will be happy to have you at the table. Until then I will ignore anything you have to say, unless I choose otherwise.
Last edited by JD; January 1st, 2011 at 11:09 AM.
December 30th, 2010 03:13 AM
I would use sight shots if I had:
A. the time
B. the distance
But unfortunately my hands shake like a wet chihuahua in winter so...
I point shoot most times. Amazingly, I'm quite good at it. I can nail the black at around ten yards every time, so I kinda count that as a good thing (feel free to disillusion me). I don't think I do it like most people however. What I do is line up the side of the slide with my target. The visible edges of the slide sort of "align" towards the target at their natural points of perspective termination. I keep both eyes open and not too surprisingly, I can see a lot more of my surroundings with this method; especially what the target is doing with their hands (somewhat difficult with sight shots).
Eh, it's what works for me, and I have great confidence that in a SHTF situation, I'll be able to place rounds down range with acceptable accuracy.
I'm not trying to win awards there, I'm just trying to win.
That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...
Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.
Convenire Volui Spectatus
December 30th, 2010 03:43 AM
What I do is line up the side of the slide with my target. The visible edges of the slide sort of "align" towards the target at their natural points of perspective termination.
Actually you are using a method of sighted fire if you are "indexing" the gun on the target and have a view of your gun and the target. It's a very effective technique and currently taught by Ayoob, among others, for certain situations.
December 30th, 2010 08:14 AM
A little over a year ago, I took my first 'point shooting course' with Brownie through the Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems listed at the top of this page.
The course was an eyeopener for me. It became 'crystal clear' that this type of training/practice would be the obvious way to stay alive in the situations that most non-LEO individuals would most likely encounter.
I'm an old guy who just wants to be left alone so as to come home each night, but the world does not always offer that option...as realized in many of the dirtbag threads posted in this forum.
Training that works with one's natural ability to quickly see the target and react accordingly without much 'thinking' goes a long way to staying above ground level.
Brownie made me realize the importance of 'point shooting' for most of the situations in which Mr. John Q. Citizen may find himself unwillingly placed.OMOYMV
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member[/B]
December 30th, 2010 10:41 AM
Point shooting is a must , IMO............but we're talkin' close range here and i agree lasers do work at close distance, especially under dim light situations.
Trying to maintain sight alignment at close quarters, under 10 feet is risky at best and the average of 3 shots in 3 seconds is almost impossible.
December 30th, 2010 11:26 AM
With all this talk of P&S has anyone here tried pulling the trigger with their middle finger instead of their index finger and if so what did you think ??? I know it would probably feel weird at first. Thanks for any info and for sharing your experience. God Bless
December 30th, 2010 11:30 AM
my apologies...i thought you were referencing indexing the gun to the body as it is referred to in point shooting while conditioning your mind, eyes and hands to work together while focusing only on the threat....as you require a crutch to index the gun to the target...which you are doing with a lazer or sights...
Originally Posted by jwarren
i am also a student of brownies multiple times along with other instructors in threat focused sightless training...what i can tell you from those experiences and my continued experience in my own training and idpa is that a point shooter is first to target with shots/multiple shots and shares accuracy with sighted and lazer equipped shooters...the operable portion of the statement being "first to target"...cause the first to put metal on meat has the highest probablility of walking away...to coin one of my instructors....
point shooting becomes completely instinctive and allows you to look where you want to put shots and place them there in any position you choose including movement....without aligning sights or chasing lazers...
December 30th, 2010 01:01 PM
Regarding shooting with the middle finger:
"Saw this technique long ago, tried it, have no use for it.
1. With very short pistol, puts index finger in the way of muzzle blast or even bullet.
2. Points the finger, not the gun. Will radically lower point of impact with almost any firearm, defeating its stated purpose.
3. Slows the draw.
4. Weakens your grasp on the gun profoundly, a great impediment to both recoil control and handgun retention.
5. Places index finger where it could bind revolver's cylinder, block some auto pistols' ejection ports, and put enough friction on slide to bind it and jam the pistol.
Just bein' practical here,
December 30th, 2010 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by azchevy
Not if you train properly with them. I can shoot very well with iron sights, point shooting, from unorthodox positions, and on the move, why, because I practice three or four times a month at it and I have been doing it for 30 years! All that being said I do think a laser specially on small pocket handguns is a real plus. If its your crutch because you can't shoot straight then get some serious training and practice something more than just punching holes in paper from a static position, which is what most people do because of range/practice limitations.
When I leave the home port:
S&W 642 Airweight, Ruger SP 101, Colt Detective Spec., CZ RAMI, Kahr PM9, Kahr CW40, S&W Model 10-7, Glock 30, 19, and 26, Browning Hi Power, CZ82, Colt Commander, Dan Wesson PM7, Ruger LCP
December 30th, 2010 04:17 PM
Old enough to have played an atari 2600 as a child and have an 8 track in my first car :)
Originally Posted by deafdave3
December 30th, 2010 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by JodyH
If you understood anything about the importance of instinctive shooting, you would not come off the way you have. At one time during the Vietam war area, the military purchased quanities of Daisy BB guns made without sights to help soldiers hone up on this skill.
Last edited by JD; January 1st, 2011 at 11:16 AM.
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