Can I ask a question about the 1911 ?? - Page 2

Can I ask a question about the 1911 ??

This is a discussion on Can I ask a question about the 1911 ?? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Although I carry a 1911, I agree that the "best" CCW has no manual safety. When you add one you add risk that under preassure ...

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Thread: Can I ask a question about the 1911 ??

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Gideon's Avatar
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    Although I carry a 1911, I agree that the "best" CCW has no manual safety. When you add one you add risk that under preassure we just might forget to sweep the safety.

    I know there are a lot of opinions on this point but that's mine even though I choose to carry a 1911. I do believe it's possible to train enought (and in the right safe way) to make it an ingrained habit.

    When I was growing up I started shooting an old Ithaca feather weight 16 ga shotgun. I'd shoot pheasants or rabbits and without any awareness I'd have taken off the safety, shot, pumped the action and re-engaged the safety without any awareness. More than once I'd check the condition of my gun after shooting a bird to discover this.

    Only recently have I started carrying my 1911. I've limited my precious little range time to only the 1911 and I (safely) practice drawing and sweeping the safety with an empty gun.

    Still, i do believe you eliminate one element of risk by eliminating the safety.

    On another point, I believe DAO is a much better trigger for pure SD. I think the SA can be too touchy for SD. It's a pure pleasure at the range but you don't "squeeze" off rounds in an SD situation. A very smooth DAO trigger pull is, in and of itself, a safety of sorts.

    So I'm with you on picking out the perfect CCW. And as for arguments that bring up the 1911's combat history, I don't think that applies well to CCW. It does show how well the gun holds up and how reliable it "can" be, but Concealed Carry is very different than combat or any kind of LEO work. For us, we're only likely to use our guns in a reactive SD role. In combat or LEO work you're just as likely to use your gun in an offensive roll. In such a case, a safety is less of a risk and a SA trigger might be better for some situations.

    This is why I favor the Kahr line of guns or a smoothed out DAO revolver.

    Still, I like the feel of the 1911 and for me, it's one of the few platforms out there that I can use to shoot a .45 acp well. I have small hands and the narrow grip of the 1911 is good for me. Also the all steel model I have helps with the recoil.

    So I'm carrying something that even I agree probably isn't the most ideal possible choice. I know how that sounds but I'm trying to be totally honest here.

    Truth is, I love the 1911, the .45 and can shoot the one I have very very well.

    To each their own....

    Merry Christmas everyone
    Gideon


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Sarge45's Avatar
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    Sounds like ATCTimmy summed it up pretty good. No need for me to read any further. ;)

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    After drawing and sweeping the safety off, it becomes automatic muscle memory.

    It's like driving a car with a stick shift. After you drive around for while, you forget that you're even doing it.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
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  4. #19
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    When was the last time that you entered a dark room at night in your house and "forgot" to flip the light switch on?
    When was the last time you pulled up to a Red Light and neglected to put your foot on the brake?

    My GOD Man! We are human beings who fly complicated jets. We are astronauts who have gone to the moon and back. We are surgeons who perform immensely complicated micro-surgery.
    We control nuclear power plants.
    We are composers who create magnificent musical symphonies. The list goes on and on.

    And some of you folks are actually stating seriously that human beings can't remember to or instinctively flip a single "thumb safety" AKA "switch" On an Off...even under stress?

    Well, if you truly believe that as the most intelligent and evolved specie that has ever existed in the history of Planet Earth that you are not up to that task then please DO select a "SIMPLE" & mindless firearm does not have that mentally taxing and monumentally burdensome and perplexing excruciatingly mind-bending lone, solitary thumb switch.

    Do yourself a massive favor though and practice enough with your safety-less "totally uncomplicated" firearm that you don't just plum "FORGET" to draw it from your holster (should you ever really need it) and always try hard to remember where that elusive trigger is located. It's always in the same place every day...HELPFUL HINT: It's inside the trigger guard.

    Also Remember...to use Your INDEX Finger to pull that trigger once you remember where it's located on your firearm....HINT....Index Finger...It's the same finger that you pick your nose with.... (the one closest to your thumb) I know that the human hand is a pretty complicated thing...you have FOUR fingers....(not to mention that pesky thumb) and so UNDER STRESS you might get all confused and forget which exact finger to use in order to save your life.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Sarge45's Avatar
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    LOL ! A round of applause for QKShooter. Eloquently put sir, and once again, I couldn't have put it any plainer. ;).

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Do yourself a massive favor though and practice enough with your safety-less "totally uncomplicated" firearm that you don't just plum "FORGET" to draw it from your holster (should you ever really need it) and always try hard to remember where that elusive trigger is located. It's always in the same place every day...HELPFUL HINT: It's inside the trigger guard.

    Also Remember...to use Your INDEX Finger to pull that trigger once you remember where it's located on your firearm....HINT....Index Finger...It's the same finger that you pick your nose with.... (the one closest to your thumb) I know that the human hand is a pretty complicated thing...you have FOUR fingers....(not to mention that pesky thumb) and so UNDER STRESS you might get all confused and forget which exact finger to use in order to save your life.

    Hahahahahaha! That's amazing!
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  7. #22
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    I would have responded sooner, but I forgot how to type when I was under the stress of fantasy football today!
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  8. #23
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    One thing I read recently (Ayoob maybe?) was that if someone grabs your gun but is not familiar with a thumb safety, it might take them a few valuable seconds to figure it out.

    But, this is just one of those one humped camel vs. two humped camel things. It boils down to whatever grabs you best.

    But if you do go 1911, cocked and locked is the way to go. Very safe...for you!
    We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.
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  9. #24
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    OK...all sarcasm put on my back burner for this post.

    Let's assume that a given human being at least has minimal practice, familiarity, and training with the Colt 1911 handgun format.

    SHTF - Bad Guy! Approaching Deadly Threat!

    Good guy (with total brain fart) draws and attempts to defensively fire his 1911.

    Pulls Trigger - Nothing Happens - Thumb then instantly moves up to snick off the thumb safety.

    A fraction of a second is lost....what is the good guy then left with?

    A large caliber firearm in hand - very easy on the recoil - perfectly balanced & naturally pointing with the very best short, crisp, trigger.

    And then....the defensive shooter has yet another massive "brain-fart" and TOTALLY FORGETS to snick ON the thumb safety when he re-holsters his 1911.

    What does he then have?

    He has a properly re-holstered firearm - in a (hopefully) good quality holster - that is now every bit as safe as a Glock - since Neither the 1911 (with the thumb safety OFF) OR The GLOCK (with no thumb safety at all) is going to "go off" all by itself inside that holster - and with no index finger on the holstered pistol trigger.

    And then in a calmer moment....the deadly threat is now over...the good guy un-holsters his firearm....either looks at it and then instantly flicks the TS on - or instinctively moves his thumb up (on the draw) to insure that the thumb safety is engaged...of course & always with the index finger outside of the trigger guard....so WHAT is the problem?

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    The other replies sum it up very well. It is not only training that teaches one to operate a 1911 one must understand how a 1911 works.
    I used to be one of the crowd that thought the 1911 was a dated gun that had a dangerous design. I have since found I was ignorant and my concerns for it's design was for not. It is a VERY safe gun that was designed by a genius. It has withstood the test of time with its proven design serving 74 years of active military service and many special forces continue to use it today. No other handgun can say that.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    When was the last time that you entered a dark room at night in your house and "forgot" to flip the light switch on?
    Never, But I've also never had to do it under extreme duress with someone trying to kill me.

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    When was the last time you pulled up to a Red Light and neglected to put your foot on the brake?
    Never, But I've also never had to do it under extreme duress with someone trying to kill me.

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    My GOD Man! We are human beings who fly complicated jets. We are astronauts who have gone to the moon and back. We are surgeons who perform immensely complicated micro-surgery.
    We control nuclear power plants.
    We are composers who create magnificent musical symphonies. The list goes on and on.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the 1911 (Or any other gun with a safety) is dangerous/outdated/whatever else 1911's bashers say. I am simply saying that to assume because you have trained with something that it will come naturally to you when under a un-natural amount of stress is a bit short sighted.
    All things that are generally not done while under the stress of someone trying to kill us.
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

  12. #27
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    Let's just change that to you were sound asleep & you just heard your little baby fall out of the crib and thud hard onto the floor and start wailing in the darkened nursery room...you are half asleep - you jump out of bed in a panic...and you rush over to the nursery....would you forget to flick on the light before you ran into the dark room?

    Of course not. You would still instinctively hit the light switch.

    It honestly is a training & familiarity issue and DO some shooters under the extreme stress of competition fudge the 1911 safety?
    Obviously some do because it happens.
    But so do Glock shooters occasionally and sporadically suffer a ND under stress when re-holstering in an adrenaline rush while still (Whoops!) having a finger on the firearm trigger.

    I have seen one pro comp shooter hit the mag release and simultaneously attempt to grab a fresh magazine from an empty mag pouch.
    And he got this really weird WTH!? WhatDaHeck? look on the face.

    Stuff happens occasionally.

    Years ago we had a person right on this forum - rack a slide to clear a loaded Glock chamber with a stoked magazine still inserted and then drop the mag and instinctively pulled the trigger to do a field strip resulting in "BANG!" & that was under absolutely no stress.

    And then let's not forget the holster maker & ex-member (who shall remain nameless) that blew a hole into his hand WITH PICS provided & so could not get his holster orders out on schedule.

    Or an old friend of mine who was just sitting in a chair (minding his own business) when his friend ran over to show off his spanky new .357 mag REVOLVER that he assumed was empty...pulled the trigger - and the guy blew a huge chunky hole out of my friends inner thigh and inches away from his jingle berries.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    And then....the defensive shooter has yet another massive "brain-fart" and TOTALLY FORGETS to snick ON the thumb safety when he re-holsters his 1911.

    What does he then have?

    He has a properly re-holstered firearm - in a (hopefully) good quality holster - that is now every bit as safe as a Glock - since Neither the 1911 (with the thumb safety OFF) OR The GLOCK (with no thumb safety at all) is going to "go off" all by itself inside that holster - and with no index finger on the holstered pistol trigger.
    Wouldn't the 1911 in this condition be even safer than the Glock? The 1911 has a grip safety that is engaged, even though the thumb safety is not. Does the Glock have a grip safety? (I confess, I am not familiar with Glocks)

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by radshooter View Post
    Wouldn't the 1911 in this condition be even safer than the Glock? The 1911 has a grip safety that is engaged, even though the thumb safety is not. Does the Glock have a grip safety? (I confess, I am not familiar with Glocks)
    No, Glocks do not have a grip safety, but they have 3 internal safeties:

    1) trigger safety
    2) firing pin safety
    3) drop safety
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

  15. #30
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    "The 1911 has a grip safety that is engaged, even though the thumb safety is not. Does the Glock have a grip safety?"

    Actually having a grip safety would be a non-issue on a 1911 that is holstered in a holster with the trigger guard & trigger covered - since the only function of the grip safety is to physically block the trigger from moving to the rear.

    Since there would be nothing TO move the trigger to the rear with the firearm already safely holstered inside a holster it's pretty much a nill safety with regard to an already holstered 1911.

    Now...with a 1911 pistol holstered inside a holster with an EXPOSED trigger and trigger guard area it WOULD be a useful added safety feature ...in that any tree branch or other external protrusion that happened to contact the exposed 1911 trigger would not be able to depress that trigger because the 1911 trigger would be physically blocked from moving to the rear.

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