Caliber dilemma. - Page 3

Caliber dilemma.

This is a discussion on Caliber dilemma. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't either. I just don't see much of a difference between a .357 sized hole and a 9mm hole. Happy New Year friend and ...

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  1. #31
    New Member Array REACT's Avatar
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    I don't either. I just don't see much of a difference between a .357 sized hole and a 9mm hole.

    Happy New Year friend and stay safe.


  2. #32
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    Adrenaline. Thats what a wounded, or panicked animal has in spades. And it takes near total blood loss, suffocation. or brain/spinal hits to end it. The deer I shoot that are relaxed go much quicker and quieter than those bumped by another hunter. As an aside, they taste better too because of the lack of adrenaline left in the deers system.
    "You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body." CS Lewis

    S&W .41 Mag - Colt DS - Ruger Single Six - Ruger Security Six - Buckmark-Beretta 21A - S&W 351PD 22 Mag- Spfld XD 9mm -- Plenty Of Long Guns--- Dry Powder and RCBS.

  3. #33
    New Member Array Moebius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    In real life things don't die like they do on tv.
    This is a good point. I have shot a small dear in the chest head on with a .50 caliber deer slug and it took some time to expire. Large mammal deaths can be a slow messy affair even with optimal bullet placement.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by REACT View Post
    I don't either. I just don't see much of a difference between a .357 sized hole and a 9mm hole.

    Happy New Year friend and stay safe.
    Same as a .22lr and a .223, which one you want to be hit with?
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  5. #35
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    I carry a Glock 23 w/ 165 Gr. Federal Hydra-Shok. (personal preferance)
    I think as long as you use hot rounds in JHP, you should be okay. Shot placement counts of course. & finally.... Makes you realise that handgun rounds are not the one shot stopper that TV /Movies makes them out to be. Shoot untill the threat stops!!!!

  6. #36
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    Buffalo Bore 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow works out of my S&W 640 just fine. On some days it feels more like .357 but I'm getting old...er'.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  7. #37
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    That was a totally inappropriate and useless caliber comparison.

    Was with a guy trying to put down a deer with a .22 pistol that had 2 broken legs with bone exposed. He bounced 2 bullets off the deer's head. I had to use a stick to point out exactly where to shoot the poor thing - and then he started to walk to another spot and I had to tell him to come back to where he was standing when I pointed out where to shoot. Yeah, he is thick headed. That shot resulted in the classic death kicks.

    A local small town PD uses a 9mm carbine to cull deer in the city limits (it's now suppressed) which only gains a about 100 fps over a pistol. It's bang flop for 60 or more deer per year and not when someone is standing over the deer, but on the side of the road or out in a field or in the woods by the road. The officer that does the shooting knows, intimately, the trajectory of the bullets he uses and understands deer anatomy.

    As has been stated, even high power rifles don't drop deer instantly with chest shots. With those shots the path to death is exsanguination which takes a while. Only a CNS shot, even with the diminutive .22, will instantly stop someone or something, and even then it's not guaranteed.

  8. #38
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    The question about what you should carry as a duty weapon has nothing to do with killing anything. As a LEO or CCW holder your goal is to STOP the threat, not to kill someone. So if you shoot a perp that is threatening you with a knife and he falls and quits his attack but does not die is that a failure? An instant kill on anything with a handgun is only possible with a head shot, period, and if thats a 22 or a 45 it doesn't matter. If a bad guy dies because of their injuries thats a side effect.

  9. #39
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    I say G21 and SP101 sounds like a great combo to me.
    Glock 26 9mm, Ruger LCR .357mag

    "Protect yourself at all times."

    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."-Clint Smith

  10. #40
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Exactly. As a collateral duty in Afghanistan, my (sniper) platoon was tasked with culling the wild, feral dogs that were becoming a real issue at our fob. One of my guys hit one with his M24 (7.62N/.308) with what appeared to be an instantly fatal chest shot. We walked up to police up the carcass and dispose of it, and found to our surprise that it was still alive. At (quite literally) muzzle contact distance, my troop fired another 7.62 round into the dog's chest. It lived. A head shot from my M4 finished it. Are we to assume from this anecdote that

    1) The 5.56N is more deadly and powerful than the 7.62N?
    2) The 7.62N is "underpowered" for SD?

    The answer to both, obviously, is NO. The fact is that a 9mm (or any "major" caliber), properly placed, will work and work well. A 30mm cannon round, improperly placed, will not.

    All that said - there's absolutely nothing wrong with the G21/SP101 combo; I personally think that both are phenomenal handguns and fantastic examples of their genres.
    My brother in law brought a wild dog home from Iraq. They too had the same orders. The dog was just a puppy at the time and was the only survivor in an explosion. They didn't have the heart to kill him. He was cleared to be brought home, tested for diseases, and now, the dog has lived with me for the past 7 years. One of the coolest dogs I've ever had. Of course, not saying you did anything wrong, just thought I'd mention my story :)

    As for the rest of your post, 100% agree.

    I also agree with others that animals are much more difficult to kill than a human. That's why it irritates me when people say ".223/5.56 isn't enough for deer, why do they expect it to kill insurgents?". Deer are pretty tough animals. Just because they're relatively the same size/weight as a human doesn't mean a whole lot. And besides, .223/5.56 I've heard, is enough to kill deer. I don't hunt, so I don't know first hand.

    I carry a .45 or .40, but I certainly wouldn't feel under gunned with a 9mm. I think 9mm is a great caliber.

  11. #41
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    RKM - I brought a dog home from Afghanistan as well. A bunch of paperwork, and not inexpensive, but TS has been living fat and happy in the States since early 2005.

    The dogs we killed were truly feral, wild, dangerous animals. A pack of them had grown up around our trash/burn pit, and had been getting bigger and more aggressive as time went on. Eventually, a few came inside the FOB and attacked one of the "pet" dogs there, as well as threatening troops on several occasions. I love dogs, have owned them all of my life, and would never hurt one unless it was absolutely necessary. Even though it WAS necessary in this case, I still feel bad about having to do it. Were there a realistic alternative, I would have made it happen...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    RKM - I brought a dog home from Afghanistan as well. A bunch of paperwork, and not inexpensive, but TS has been living fat and happy in the States since early 2005.

    The dogs we killed were truly feral, wild, dangerous animals. A pack of them had grown up around our trash/burn pit, and had been getting bigger and more aggressive as time went on. Eventually, a few came inside the FOB and attacked one of the "pet" dogs there, as well as threatening troops on several occasions. I love dogs, have owned them all of my life, and would never hurt one unless it was absolutely necessary. Even though it WAS necessary in this case, I still feel bad about having to do it. Were there a realistic alternative, I would have made it happen...
    I have had to put down 2 dogs in my lifetime. It's not very fun. Dogs have too much personality. :(

    To the OP. It's been pounded over and over already but wild animals are not people. Their brains are different and they have no "restrictor plates" holding them back. How else could a 75lb chimp be strong enough to tear a 250lb man apart?

    Once I shot a small deer through the chest (both lungs) with a 300WSM and had it run over 200 yards. A human would have flopped like a fish.

    Hollow point bullets are made for shooting people in urban environments so you don't get pass throughs. If you want to shoot animals use a heavy for caliber jacketed soft point.
    Last edited by atctimmy; January 3rd, 2011 at 10:17 PM.
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  13. #43
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    I agree with all those whom have said that wild animals are wild animals. Head shots, even at close range don't always have the desired effects. A quick, clean kill shouldn't involve thinking of another caliber to do the job. Bullet placement is still key for the matter at hand. Hate to hear you went through such a traumatic ordeal. IMO...stick with what you've got. Second guessing yourself twice will only lead you down the wrong path. If there is a next time, you'll do better, and don't think otherwise.

  14. #44
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    A vet recently (December 2010) used my G26 and one (1) Gold Dot JHP, 124g to put down a draft horse that had colicked. Right behind the ear. A Percheron. A gorgeous boy. It was a massive 18 hand 2,000 gelding with a thick, massive skull. It was a very tough day. It was not the caliber. It was not the gun.



    Second guessing yourself twice will only lead you down the wrong path. If there is a next time, you'll do better, and don't think otherwise.
    That's why I made the vet do it - a practiced and experienced hand at the task.


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

  15. #45
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    I once had to put down a cat. terrible set of problems that resulted in having to do it, but it was very old and critically injured (Back end ran over crippled waist down). I got to the critically injured cat and decided it needed to be put down so I shot it twice in the front shoulder with a .45ACP point blank range. The cat crawled a few feet into the weeds before dying!!! No reason the cat (15-16 years old) should have survived getting ran over by a 6000lbs SUV, but to not die right away after taking 2 shots to the front shoulder??? They are animals, tough stong animals. It is a good thing we have guns cuz we are by far the weakest creature on the planet.
    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women

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