Caliber dilemma.

[AllAbtSlfDef]

I mentioned to a friend the other day that I shot a deer that was hit on the side of the road 5 times with my G19 and it didn't die. I said that the other guy with me shot it in the back of the head with the same gun to put it down. His response was along the lines of this.

Most deer are smaller than people, and they are all muscle. They don't wear clothes and it was injured. Makes you think about a 357 doesn't it?

So I got to thinking, I carry 2 different 9s on duty. I am thinking about going back to my .45 and carrying a 357 as a BUG. I chose the .45 as the duty weapon because its a hard hitting round too. We discussed the fact that those are the two hardest hitting rounds that I am allowed to carry on duty.

Do I stick with the G21 as my .45 and my SP101 as my BUG w/ .357s loaded up?

or

Do I go with a 1911 and some other .357 ?

I used to carry the 21/30 combo and it was ok but I don't have the 30 anymore.

Let's see your opinions. Thanks in advance.


Jason

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[WvHiker]

Where did you shoot the deer?

[AllAbtSlfDef]

Apparently not in the right spot lol I'm not sure exactly I don't believe they were direct head shots.

Jason

[gasmitty]

Both the .45 ACP and the .357 Mag are proven fight-stoppers, almost independent of ammo choices.

That said, leaving out the drug-laced types, most humans are easier to put down than wild animals. We want the ammo we use on deer and the like to penetrate through-and-through so there is a good path for them to bleed out, even if they run. With humans, we prefer to expend all the bullet energy in tearing up innards and interrupting neural paths so the fight is stopped quickly. Big calibers, decent energy and penetration, and expanding bullets are the way we push the odds in our favor.

I think it's not an apples-to-apples comparison between putting down wild animals and humans. You used what you had on hand to put that deer down, but a shotgun with 00 buck or similar would have worked more quickly.

[Trav]

Good lord, i know deer are tough but if you shoot um right they can die quick. You need to either shoot them in the heart or behind the ear for a quick kill, even a lung shot and it takes them a while to die. A guy i know had to shoot one 3 times with his 7mm rifle. I think its because humans give up faster than animals.

As for your carry options, go with the G21 and SP 101

[OPFOR]

A guy i know had to shoot one 3 times with his 7mm rifle.

Exactly. As a collateral duty in Afghanistan, my (sniper) platoon was tasked with culling the wild, feral dogs that were becoming a real issue at our fob. One of my guys hit one with his M24 (7.62N/.308) with what appeared to be an instantly fatal chest shot. We walked up to police up the carcass and dispose of it, and found to our surprise that it was still alive. At (quite literally) muzzle contact distance, my troop fired another 7.62 round into the dog's chest. It lived. A head shot from my M4 finished it. Are we to assume from this anecdote that

1) The 5.56N is more deadly and powerful than the 7.62N?
2) The 7.62N is "underpowered" for SD?

The answer to both, obviously, is NO. The fact is that a 9mm (or any "major" caliber), properly placed, will work and work well. A 30mm cannon round, improperly placed, will not.

All that said - there's absolutely nothing wrong with the G21/SP101 combo; I personally think that both are phenomenal handguns and fantastic examples of their genres.

[glockman10mm]

That, .... is very interesting. Where exactly did you shoot the deer, and what load were you using. If the deer was laying down, it's possible it did not show effects quickly. They have a tendancy to bleed out and die quicker while running and have the heart pumping blood at full capacity.

The 45 and 357 are both excellent, but remember, they work in different ways.

[BikerRN]

Both the .45 ACP and the .357 Mag are proven fight-stoppers, almost independent of ammo choices.

That said, leaving out the drug-laced types, most humans are easier to put down than wild animals. We want the ammo we use on deer and the like to penetrate through-and-through so there is a good path for them to bleed out, even if they run. With humans, we prefer to expend all the bullet energy in tearing up innards and interrupting neural paths so the fight is stopped quickly. Big calibers, decent energy and penetration, and expanding bullets are the way we push the odds in our favor.

I think it's not an apples-to-apples comparison between putting down wild animals and humans. You used what you had on hand to put that deer down, but a shotgun with 00 buck or similar would have worked more quickly.

Not trying to pick a fight, but I would venture that a shotgun with 00 buck or similar would also work more quickly on a bi-pedal target as well.

Biker

[ks kid]

I wouldnt put too much thought into this. I had to dispatch a deer this year and used my .44mag with gold dots. One shot in the back of the skull from about 3ft and it did not drop like I thought it would. The round did not pass through, which suprised me. It was an eye opener, but I do not feel under powered with a 9mm. An animal is geared to survive and never give up, for most humans, not so much.

[AllAbtSlfDef]

Deer was laying down and I was using magtech JHP. Not the best ammo.

Jason

[Stevew]

In real life things don't die like they do on tv. Make an imaginary line from right eye to left ear and then make an imaginary line from left eye to right ear. Place your bullet where the two lines intersect.

[glockman10mm]

Deer was laying down and I was using magtech JHP. Not the best ammo.

Jason

carry heavier, more solidly constructed stuff. You are kind of walking on ground I covered long ago, with respect to what works, what doesn't. I'll bet it didn't fully penetrate either. I wish more people experienced this for themselves.

[REACT]

No question that a .45 is bigger than a 9mm, so lets look at the .357.

9mm = .355
.357 = .357
difference = .002

I have been all over the caliber spectrum. I started with A G17 in 9mm, but I was convinced by anecdotal evidence that it was not capable of stopping anything. Sold the G17 and bought a G33 in .357 SIG. Way too much drama for nearly the same size hole. Sold the G33 and hopped on the XD bandwagon in .40S&W (subcompact). Again, too much drama. Not as bad as the .357 SIG, but enough in a polymer subcompact to look for something better. After a lot of reading, I'm back to 9mm (147 gr JHP) and working on my shot placement (as stated above).

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

[C hawk Glock]

No question that a .45 is bigger than a 9mm, so lets look at the .357.

9mm = .355
.357 = .357
difference = .002

I have been all over the caliber spectrum. I started with A G17 in 9mm, but I was convinced by anecdotal evidence that it was not capable of stopping anything. Sold the G17 and bought a G33 in .357 SIG. Way too much drama for nearly the same size hole. Sold the G33 and hopped on the XD bandwagon in .40S&W (subcompact). Again, too much drama. Not as bad as the .357 SIG, but enough in a polymer subcompact to look for something better. After a lot of reading, I'm back to 9mm (147 gr JHP) and working on my shot placement (as stated above).

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

[Dragman]

Just a question any chance you called schultz's sportsmens stop and talked to me after this happened???