Caliber dilemma.

This is a discussion on Caliber dilemma. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I mentioned to a friend the other day that I shot a deer that was hit on the side of the road 5 times with ...

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Thread: Caliber dilemma.

  1. #1
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    Caliber dilemma.

    I mentioned to a friend the other day that I shot a deer that was hit on the side of the road 5 times with my G19 and it didn't die. I said that the other guy with me shot it in the back of the head with the same gun to put it down. His response was along the lines of this.

    Most deer are smaller than people, and they are all muscle. They don't wear clothes and it was injured. Makes you think about a 357 doesn't it?

    So I got to thinking, I carry 2 different 9s on duty. I am thinking about going back to my .45 and carrying a 357 as a BUG. I chose the .45 as the duty weapon because its a hard hitting round too. We discussed the fact that those are the two hardest hitting rounds that I am allowed to carry on duty.

    Do I stick with the G21 as my .45 and my SP101 as my BUG w/ .357s loaded up?

    or

    Do I go with a 1911 and some other .357 ?

    I used to carry the 21/30 combo and it was ok but I don't have the 30 anymore.

    Let's see your opinions. Thanks in advance.


    Jason
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

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  3. #2
    Member Array WvHiker's Avatar
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    Where did you shoot the deer?

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    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    Apparently not in the right spot lol I'm not sure exactly I don't believe they were direct head shots.

    Jason
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

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    Both the .45 ACP and the .357 Mag are proven fight-stoppers, almost independent of ammo choices.

    That said, leaving out the drug-laced types, most humans are easier to put down than wild animals. We want the ammo we use on deer and the like to penetrate through-and-through so there is a good path for them to bleed out, even if they run. With humans, we prefer to expend all the bullet energy in tearing up innards and interrupting neural paths so the fight is stopped quickly. Big calibers, decent energy and penetration, and expanding bullets are the way we push the odds in our favor.

    I think it's not an apples-to-apples comparison between putting down wild animals and humans. You used what you had on hand to put that deer down, but a shotgun with 00 buck or similar would have worked more quickly.
    Smitty
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    Member Array Trav's Avatar
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    Good lord, i know deer are tough but if you shoot um right they can die quick. You need to either shoot them in the heart or behind the ear for a quick kill, even a lung shot and it takes them a while to die. A guy i know had to shoot one 3 times with his 7mm rifle. I think its because humans give up faster than animals.

    As for your carry options, go with the G21 and SP 101

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    A guy i know had to shoot one 3 times with his 7mm rifle.
    Exactly. As a collateral duty in Afghanistan, my (sniper) platoon was tasked with culling the wild, feral dogs that were becoming a real issue at our fob. One of my guys hit one with his M24 (7.62N/.308) with what appeared to be an instantly fatal chest shot. We walked up to police up the carcass and dispose of it, and found to our surprise that it was still alive. At (quite literally) muzzle contact distance, my troop fired another 7.62 round into the dog's chest. It lived. A head shot from my M4 finished it. Are we to assume from this anecdote that

    1) The 5.56N is more deadly and powerful than the 7.62N?
    2) The 7.62N is "underpowered" for SD?

    The answer to both, obviously, is NO. The fact is that a 9mm (or any "major" caliber), properly placed, will work and work well. A 30mm cannon round, improperly placed, will not.

    All that said - there's absolutely nothing wrong with the G21/SP101 combo; I personally think that both are phenomenal handguns and fantastic examples of their genres.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    That, .... is very interesting. Where exactly did you shoot the deer, and what load were you using. If the deer was laying down, it's possible it did not show effects quickly. They have a tendancy to bleed out and die quicker while running and have the heart pumping blood at full capacity.

    The 45 and 357 are both excellent, but remember, they work in different ways.

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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Both the .45 ACP and the .357 Mag are proven fight-stoppers, almost independent of ammo choices.

    That said, leaving out the drug-laced types, most humans are easier to put down than wild animals. We want the ammo we use on deer and the like to penetrate through-and-through so there is a good path for them to bleed out, even if they run. With humans, we prefer to expend all the bullet energy in tearing up innards and interrupting neural paths so the fight is stopped quickly. Big calibers, decent energy and penetration, and expanding bullets are the way we push the odds in our favor.

    I think it's not an apples-to-apples comparison between putting down wild animals and humans. You used what you had on hand to put that deer down, but a shotgun with 00 buck or similar would have worked more quickly.
    Not trying to pick a fight, but I would venture that a shotgun with 00 buck or similar would also work more quickly on a bi-pedal target as well.

    Biker

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    Senior Member Array ks kid's Avatar
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    I wouldnt put too much thought into this. I had to dispatch a deer this year and used my .44mag with gold dots. One shot in the back of the skull from about 3ft and it did not drop like I thought it would. The round did not pass through, which suprised me. It was an eye opener, but I do not feel under powered with a 9mm. An animal is geared to survive and never give up, for most humans, not so much.

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    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    Deer was laying down and I was using magtech JHP. Not the best ammo.

    Jason
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

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    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    In real life things don't die like they do on tv. Make an imaginary line from right eye to left ear and then make an imaginary line from left eye to right ear. Place your bullet where the two lines intersect.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAbtSlfDef View Post
    Deer was laying down and I was using magtech JHP. Not the best ammo.

    Jason
    carry heavier, more solidly constructed stuff. You are kind of walking on ground I covered long ago, with respect to what works, what doesn't. I'll bet it didn't fully penetrate either. I wish more people experienced this for themselves.

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    New Member Array REACT's Avatar
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    No question that a .45 is bigger than a 9mm, so lets look at the .357.

    9mm = .355
    .357 = .357
    difference = .002

    I have been all over the caliber spectrum. I started with A G17 in 9mm, but I was convinced by anecdotal evidence that it was not capable of stopping anything. Sold the G17 and bought a G33 in .357 SIG. Way too much drama for nearly the same size hole. Sold the G33 and hopped on the XD bandwagon in .40S&W (subcompact). Again, too much drama. Not as bad as the .357 SIG, but enough in a polymer subcompact to look for something better. After a lot of reading, I'm back to 9mm (147 gr JHP) and working on my shot placement (as stated above).

    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by REACT View Post
    No question that a .45 is bigger than a 9mm, so lets look at the .357.

    9mm = .355
    .357 = .357
    difference = .002

    I have been all over the caliber spectrum. I started with A G17 in 9mm, but I was convinced by anecdotal evidence that it was not capable of stopping anything. Sold the G17 and bought a G33 in .357 SIG. Way too much drama for nearly the same size hole. Sold the G33 and hopped on the XD bandwagon in .40S&W (subcompact). Again, too much drama. Not as bad as the .357 SIG, but enough in a polymer subcompact to look for something better. After a lot of reading, I'm back to 9mm (147 gr JHP) and working on my shot placement (as stated above).

    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

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    Distinguished Member Array Dragman's Avatar
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    Just a question any chance you called schultz's sportsmens stop and talked to me after this happened???
    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women

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