If the odds went up, would it affect which gun you carry?

This is a discussion on If the odds went up, would it affect which gun you carry? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by RKM I'd go from CCing my Glock 30 IWB and my Kahr in a pocket holster, to OCing my Hk USP wih ...

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Thread: If the odds went up, would it affect which gun you carry?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    I'd go from CCing my Glock 30 IWB and my Kahr in a pocket holster, to OCing my Hk USP wih TLR-2 and my Glock 30 as back-up. But for me to OC, there has to be a serious threat, because I'm not a fan of OC. Not in general. I actually like seeing people OC, which unfortunately isn't often around here, but I don't like OC for myself.... if that makes sense.
    Yes, it does. It's called diverting attention elsewhere!

    There's not a lot I would do other than pay more attention and maybe shove my G21 13-round mag in my G30 for a few "extras." Additionally, my 4566 is always nearby at the house.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  3. #62
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    contrary opinion.

    I myself would definitely NOT change weapons if I were expecting a raised risk. Since this seems to be counter to the way everyone is answering, I'll explain....

    First you would have to take for granted that I already carry what I consider to be enough firepower. ( since that is almost an engraved invitation to start a religious war among the people here, I will not say specifically what I carry). Just note I said WHAT I CONSIDER to be enough, not what anybody has agreed to.- And I've practice with THAT SPECIFIC weapon a lot and attained a level of proficiency with it that I am quite proud of.

    Second, I have to carry using extra concealment because of my work environment. - That means a tuckable IWB with the shirt tucked and a under a jacket. Everyone has to examine how they trade availability for concealment, but I am in a position that I have no real choice but to go to with a less-available option. - on the up side, that makes concealing a full-power handgun easier... thus the first item above.

    So if I were to be unavoidably in a situation of elevated risk, I would change my HOLSTER, ( to a paddle holster at 3:30, perhaps, or one of the few options I have in between.) but I'd still be using the same gun.

    ..

    - Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    LOL, its really no more nichey than alot of other tactics taught.
    Actually it is. It's a pre-etermined commitment to deal with an evolving life and death situation with your hand constrained to and by a pocket. If the situation deterioates to more than we anticipated, what started out as a percieved advantage could quickly turn into a disadvantage.

    Numerous more limitations are implied by having a hand and gun constrained to a pocket. If the situation develops where a lot of civies are around, there are background problems, another BG(s) shows up at more marginal distances, mixed with innocents to some degree, we may need to do more than shoot from the pocket.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ...The idea is your hand is on the gun from the very beginning. Pocket holster? Depends. The idea of quick threat identification is invalidated by the very idea of self defensive, where the bad guy has the upper hand, and presents the same problem as far as application no matter the mode of carry. But having said that, it is always faster to bring a weapon into play that your hand is on than sweepin the cover garment and making the draw stroke.
    There's never been any question about any of that. After all, who doesn't understand that having the hand on the gun before the fight starts is an advantage? One of my instructors used to say, "The first rule of a gun fight is having a gun - - - in your hand before it starts." but he didn't pocket carry.

    If we consider that gunfights are ill-defined events, we have to ask ourselves where our comfort levels lie. I simply don't want my hand and gun constrained to a pocket in a gunfight. Granted in narrowly defined incidents, we can show how the hand in the pocket would be an advantage. But if we broaden our thinking to include situations where things can evolve outside of the realm we expected initially, what once was percieved as an advantage could rapidly turn into a disadvantage.

    A gun on the belt, could be just as effective if coupled with good tactics as a hand on a gun in the pocket and would cover a much broader range of situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ...By the topic of your thread, the assumption for this technique is considered a raised response level to the perceived higher odds. The only difference is this technique favors a tactical advantage of quick first shot, discreet, yet ready to fire instantly without a lot of give away movement, over increased firepower as many would automatically assume to go to.

    Imagine a guy walking up to you crossing the parking lot, knife or gun in hand , saying give me your..BOOM!. Lights out. How was he to know you already had your weapon ready and all you had to do was pull the trigger?
    Actually the topic is 'would you change guns', but this is related. But again we are tailoring a scenario to show an advantage to a carry mode. But the carry mode must provide broad solutions for scenarios outside of what the pocket carry can provide. We can talk about speed, hand on the gun, but unless we are in the specific scenario that can be addressed by a five-shot gun in the pocket, then we need to consider a different ‘upgrade’.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ...The point is, this is a very good upgrade to make to deal with real everyday type encounters, (not Die Hard type scenarios). Yoy have upgraded your option while still maintaining carry of an everday carry piece.
    It’s actually a carry method that can deal with a very narrow range of SD situations.

    For example, in my particular real-life situation, the threat, if it materialized would consist of three BGs. I know this because I knew the situation. My wife was actually threatened loudly in court by one of the three as he was being forcefully removed from the courtroom. I wouldn’t want to face these three guys with a five-shot revolver in my pocket. I wouldn’t want to face them with a hicap gun on my belt for that matter, but if it were unavoidable….
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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    I think if the odds went up, I would be more inclined to add capacity and bullet size.
    Thanks, C hawk, interestingly enough that was a strong motivator that led me to switch from the Sig 229R (14 round) to a G-17 (18) round. I realize that may not sound like much of an advantage, but it's almost as much as a five shot revolver would provide. But this got very real to me. I could be facing three threats and if I could stay alive long enough, I'd want as many rounds as I could get. Although I didn't change calibers.
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  6. #65
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    Well Tangle, I guess we are not goin agree on everything, but you asked a question and that was a response I can defintely agree with. Guantes is former LE with some training distinctions, and I am an LE, so maybe we see , or look at things from a different perspective or tactical considerations.

    In the event such as you described in the ct rm scene, the sad fact is if someone really wants you dead, sooner or later, unless you take extreme measures, they will get you. The only recourse is a preemptive strike, or move away. The POTUS has the best security in the world, and is still vulnerable.

    Yeah, I'll take a pistol in my hand pointed at your gut thru a jacket pocket, with the knowledge of knowing my EDC is ready to bring into play. I have done nothing but give myself an option that doesn't take away from anything.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Well Tangle, I guess we are not goin agree on everything, but you asked a question and that was a response I can defintely agree with. Guantes is former LE with some training distinctions, and I am an LE, so maybe we see , or look at things from a different perspective or tactical considerations.
    Could be that LE sees things differently. If one feels he is better prepared to face three BGs with a five shot revolver in the pocket in lieu of a 18 shot semi on the belt and is willing to accept that if a second BG is out of range of the pocket shot, then that's what he should carry.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ...In the event such as you described in the ct rm scene, the sad fact is if someone really wants you dead, sooner or later, unless you take extreme measures, they will get you. The only recourse is a preemptive strike, or move away. The POTUS has the best security in the world, and is still vulnerable.
    The threat in the courtroom was a loud verbal threat. The guy was in handcuffs and got so loud the judge ordered him from the courtroom. As he was drug past where my wife was sitting, he looked at her and yelled, "We're gonna get you too."

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Yeah, I'll take a pistol in my hand pointed at your gut thru a jacket pocket, with the knowledge of knowing my EDC is ready to bring into play. I have done nothing but give myself an option that doesn't take away from anything.
    If the second BG is 15 feet from you and standing near an innocent, and about to shoot you, could you make the shot from your pocket?

    If you had no chance but to drop to one knee so your shot would be upward and away from innocents in case of a miss, could you do that?

    I understand the hand on the gun thing; I did from the start, but I'm having trouble buying that this is the best all round defensive carry option we have.
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  8. #67
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    I always keep my LCP in my pocket but if I feel the need I may also arm myself with my SR9c.

  9. #68
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    No, it's not the best all round, but does have it's advantages.

    But let's say that you did take a shot from the pocket, and then had to engage another target 15 yards out as you suggest. You would simply pull the EDC you still carry as you would have anyway. You have not achieved a disadvantage just because you took the first BG out with a pocket shot.

    In any event, it's a tool for the bag where the upmost discrection is needed, but instant response necassary for danger close threats.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    No, it's not the best all round, but does have it's advantages.

    But let's say that you did take a shot from the pocket, and then had to engage another target 15 yards out as you suggest. You would simply pull the EDC you still carry as you would have anyway. You have not achieved a disadvantage just because you took the first BG out with a pocket shot.
    Actually I said 15 feet with innocents nearby. I don't think it would be so simple to extract one's hand from a jacket pocket. Everytime I've tried this, I find it daunting to get my hand out of the pocket cleanly. Even if one could and absolutely nothing went wrong with removing the hand from the pocket, it takes time, then one still needs to draw his EDC from concealment, possibly with his jacket on fire. I've heard of that from several people.

    ...In any event, it's a tool for the bag where the upmost discrection is needed, but instant response necassary for danger close threats.
    It is, and I don't disagree with that, but the method can complicate other options should the 'event' turn into something more than just one BG at three feet, that's all I'm saying.
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  11. #70
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    Why extract the hand from the pocket? The extended pocket shot is virtually identical to half hip and at five yards a com hit is virtually 100%, head shot somewhat less. I was just practicing those half hip shots yesterday.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  12. #71
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    How about just don't carry a j-frame in your pocket if you don't feel like it's a good idea? I really can't see where having an extra gun in a coat pocket could possibly hurt, and it might help. I'd like to have a j-frame for just that reason.

  13. #72
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    If I already took out one BG, I'd be inclined to keep that same pistol in my hand for #2. I'd probably be moving by then anyway, so might go for my sidearm, but just playing it out in my head, if I'm going to take aim for a longer shot, I've already got a gun in my hand. Just pull it out of the pocket and squeeze off.

  14. #73
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    I'd be going in "heavy" with an H&K MP5 PDW on a single point shoulder sling slung under a trench coat or military field jacket. Or the new Kel Tec KSG bullpup shotgun slung the same way. (buckshot for clear shots with no bystanders and slugs for taking out badguys with innocents close by.

    Okay. Sorry, I thought we were in the middle of a John Woo movie.
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  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Why extract the hand from the pocket? The extended pocket shot is virtually identical to half hip and at five yards a com hit is virtually 100%, head shot somewhat less. I was just practicing those half hip shots yesterday.
    Because first, very few people can get 100% COM shots under any conditions, much less a hip shot. Second, I can't get my hand, grasping a gun, to come cleanly out of my jacket pocket. i suspect you are 100% getting the hand and gun out of the jacket without anything going wrong. Plus, five shots for three BGs, as was the potential in my case, isn't at all reassuring to me. Switching guns in a gunfight isn't particularly appealing either.
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    If I already took out one BG, I'd be inclined to keep that same pistol in my hand for #2. I'd probably be moving by then anyway, so might go for my sidearm, but just playing it out in my head, if I'm going to take aim for a longer shot, I've already got a gun in my hand. Just pull it out of the pocket and squeeze off.
    What's your draw and fire time pulling the gun from your jacket pocket?
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