If the odds went up, would it affect which gun you carry?

This is a discussion on If the odds went up, would it affect which gun you carry? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think that what a lot of people are missing here is that an attack by 3 assailants, will be very close quarters very fast. ...

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Thread: If the odds went up, would it affect which gun you carry?

  1. #121
    Member Array Trav's Avatar
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    I think that what a lot of people are missing here is that an attack by 3 assailants, will be very close quarters very fast. Im picturing being surrounded and within arms reach. I would still keep my Glock 19 on my hip, most likely i wont be needing a spare mag other than to do a tac reload after the threat has subsided. The most useful tool at this point would be a fixed blade knife.

    Glock in one hand, knife in the other.

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  3. #122
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    I've thought a lot about this and, no, I don't think my carry would change much only because I'm already carrying all that I can because I have realized that ANY moment might be that moment.

    Does that mean I never "down-grade" to a revolver or pocket pistol? No. But I try to keep the most amount of ammo on my body whenever I can.

    I think if there was an increase in crime it wouldn't necessarily change what I carry as much as it would make me reaffirm to carry it "religiously" so-to-speak.

    Right now it's a G19 and a spar magazine along with at least two knives. Flashlight in pocket, pepper spray in purse.. it's pretty much as good as I'm going to get without strapping on a Batman belt.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I've thought a lot about this and, no, I don't think my carry would change much only because I'm already carrying all that I can because I have realized that ANY moment might be that moment.

    Does that mean I never "down-grade" to a revolver or pocket pistol? No. But I try to keep the most amount of ammo on my body whenever I can.

    I think if there was an increase in crime it wouldn't necessarily change what I carry as much as it would make me reaffirm to carry it "religiously" so-to-speak.

    Right now it's a G19 and a spar magazine along with at least two knives. Flashlight in pocket, pepper spray in purse.. it's pretty much as good as I'm going to get without strapping on a Batman belt.
    Good post - good thoughts as usual Lima. That would just about sum it up for me as well.
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  5. #124
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    I realize, as some have stated, some are joining late and haven't read all the posts, and I don't blame them. So how about a refresher here with some details that could have been included. So here's the whole incident as it developed.

    My wife went to court (support) with a woman that we have known for years. Three men had abused (read some torture) and ceremonially raped her - that's two ways just to be civil. The three were in court to face charges for the rape of this woman and another woman they raped. One of the three men was so loud and unruly that the judge ordered him from the courtroom. He was literally drug from the courtroom, in cuffs of course, still screaming and yelling. As he passed where my wife was sitting he looked directly at my wife and yelled, "And we'll get you too!". The three men got 6 months for the two rapes. The woman's brother and his family were kidnapped and locked in a remote utility building for days without food or water. It was all over the news.

    So that's how this thing developed. I learned about all this after the fact. Once I realized what had happened, I decided that if the three men tried to make good on their threat I wanted, as Lima said it well, "...I try to keep the most amount of ammo on my body whenever I can." which in my case had a large part in me to switching from a 14 round Sig P229 to an 18 round G17.

    As i stepped out of my house, as I exited my car, as I exited businesses, as I returned home, I evaluated how an attack might evolve. I refused to limit myself to the scenario of an empty lot with just me and three BGs with them lined up 6 feet from me ready to be shot. I considered everything I could think of. One of them 'asking' for directions as a diversion while the other two assumed snipe positions, possibily partially behind the van they were travelling in, etc. I envisioned that they could already be in my house and have my wife when I arrived home. We just simply don't know how something like that is gonna start or evolve.

    And when it happens to you, you will realize just how vulnerable you are.
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  6. #125
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    Tangle,

    I stopped following this thread after I posted the popcorn, and truth be told had grown weary of it long before that.

    I saw where some practical advice was given to you, to use not in leiu of but in addition to. I too will go on record as saying that a second gun may be for your benefit. Yes, it is a "niche" item, and not appropriate for every situation, but then so is your daily carried firearm. The fastest draw is to already have a gun in your hand, and the pocket pistol allows that. In short it gives one options, just as the pepper spray, kubotan, and knife does. One could think of the pocket pistol as a means to fight your way to your firearm better suited to the task at hand. It allows you to perhaps buy time to get to your preferred weapon, without giving the badguy(s) any telegraphing motions that you are armed until you fire from your pocket or remove your hand from your pocket with the gun in your hand.

    One thing to consider, while having a pocket gun with your hand on it is that you will appear very non-threatening, but be prepared to unleash violence at a moment's notice. That's just something to consider. Drawing a weapon, everyone that has ever watched a "made for TV" cop show knows what that looks like. The motion of drawing is not really consistant with doing anything else, except perhaps reaching for a wallet. Given the circustances, they may not be asking for your wallet, so your movement towards your firearm would unlikely be interpreted as anything else. Having your hand in your pocket, and withdrawing it, is a more natural and expected response that may not alert the badguy.

    No, the pocket gun is not the best, it's just what some of us consider the best until we can get to something else. Think of it like the pistol for the military. The pistol is used to fight your way back to your rifle. In your case the BUG can be used to fight your way to your more appropriate handgun.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; January 7th, 2011 at 10:21 AM. Reason: typo

  7. #126
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    Biker,
    'Practical' must include techniques appropriate to a given situation or a range of situations that must be accounted for and be within the practical skill set of the person. Too often, 'practical solutions' account for specific scenarios ideal for that particular solution, OR that rely on skill sets that most don't have, and have little opportunity to develop or even ever practice.

    As the magnitude of the scenario increases, what was percieved as an advantage can quickly become a disadvantage. An example of this is, we have our hand in our pocket and for whatever reason - the gun is empty, the range is too far, the targets are no longer fully disclosed, background problems, whatever, we need to go to our secondary gun on our belt. How do we get our hand out of the pocket cleanly in order to access our secondary gun? I have tried to quickly remove my hand from a jacket pocket and it's problematic - so much so that I don't want to get into that in a life and death situation.

    Then another practicality is, I and many others live in climates where wearing a jacket is impractical. Once again we see a severe limitation to pocket carry. Our tactics have to change once we can no longer wear a jacket for pocket carry.

    For a method to be 'practical' it must take into account the environment that will not be known until the event occurs. It may include cluttered backgrounds, innocent bystanders, protecting loved ones or friends with you at the time, etc. Those things we have little control over because we cannot predict, determine, and most likely have little control over if/when it occurs. Then, I don't personally consider it practical to consider that the BGs will always be in range or oriented such that a pocket technique will work. I don't consider it practical to switch guns in the middle of a gunfight, or at least a life-and-death situation.

    I think it not only reasonable, but wise to explore ramifications of a subitted technique. As I consider the pocket technique which has been around as long as the snub nose gun, as well as shooting from the pocket, we need to define not only it's strong points in idealistic scenarios, but also in a broader range of scenarios that can and are quite likely to develop especially with multiple threats. We need to consider if something we think is going to be an advantageous method can become a disadvantage if something materializes beyond that technique's practical envelope.

    Would it hurt to carry a gun in a jacket pocket? Probably not, but is it practical to always wear a jacket? No, so that implies there has to be other practical ways to carry and deploy a handgun when we can't wear a jacket.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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  8. #127
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    If i was in this situation, i honestly would not want to carry a BUG IWB weak side. Without some very extensive training i think weapon retention will become an issue with three guys on top of you. I really like the idea of a hammerless snubbie in my jacket pocket.

    These guys dont really sound like the type to be sniping you from a van. They seem to like kidnapping but they are cabable of anything. I would be more worried about a home invasion in the middle of the night, but it sounds like you have prepared for that too. Are these guys still a threat to you? How long ago was this? It sounds like it was a horrible situation for all involved and seems almost like something you would see in a movie.

  9. #128
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    Jacket carry is only one small part of this. Its like the extention for your ratchet. Of coarse you wont always be wearing the jacket. Of coarse you wont always have your hand in the pocket. But when you do, you can use that tool. It is only secondary to you primary weapon on your hip.

  10. #129
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    If the odds of me getting into a fire fight were to go up, the first thing I would do is avoid being out where I would need to pack heavy. I pack a Glock 23 or 27 depending on clothing and a LCR as a secondary with spare ammo. If I'm in a place where I'm going to need more firepower I'm either A. screwed or B. running around with my buddies who are also armed.
    "Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!" - Marvin the Martian

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  11. #130
    Distinguished Member Array Gideon's Avatar
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    I've thought about this before and therefore I try to rotate little to none. My main gun is a Kahr K9. I try to carry it all the time. I'm currently proving out a compact 1911 in .45. Once I'm satisfied with that I'll be carrying that. I wear these rigs in the house or out and about. The only switch I make is to change out to a Kahr P9 if I have to do lawn work or work around the house because it's lighter than the K9.

    I will add a J frame or Kahr P380 as a bug or if I'm in the rare situation where I'm carrying and can't have a cover and must tuck, then the P380 or the J frame become my primary in a pocket holster.

    Anything that makes me change from this has to be bad and if I had a chance to prepare but couldn't avoid, I'd go "long".

    Gideon

  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trav View Post
    If i was in this situation, i honestly would not want to carry a BUG IWB weak side. Without some very extensive training i think weapon retention will become an issue with three guys on top of you. I really like the idea of a hammerless snubbie in my jacket pocket.

    These guys dont really sound like the type to be sniping you from a van. They seem to like kidnapping but they are cabable of anything. I would be more worried about a home invasion in the middle of the night, but it sounds like you have prepared for that too. Are these guys still a threat to you? How long ago was this? It sounds like it was a horrible situation for all involved and seems almost like something you would see in a movie.
    Trav,
    First, it's been about a year now with no further indications of reprisal, or any other incidents so I am treating this at a bit lower 'DEFCON' level than I have been, although, I still stay alert, do a lot of visualization, actively look for escape routes and cover, and don't assume anything about anyone.

    You make some good points. I would respond to, "These guys dont really sound like the type to be sniping you from a van.". Really, that's nothing more than speculation - it all is - all I've tried to anticipate is. We actually have no idea what, when, or how, it might happen. Could be a drive-by - anything. It was Mike Tyson that said, "Everyone's gots a plan until they get hit."

    Of course what this means is that we have a plan until reality 'hits' us from a direction that we weren't prepared for or unable to defend. To that end, I cannot in good conscious commit my life and loved ones to the limitation that the BGs will be within 10 feet or they'll all be in front of me, or that I won't have to guide a loved one with one hand, or that if becomes necessary that I'll have the opportunity, time, and dextrous abillity to cleanly withdraw my hand from a jacket pocket while under stress, or that I'll even have a jacket on, or that they'll walk right up to my face. Frankly, I seriously doubt these guys are gonna walk up to me and pull a gun. I wouldn't if I were them.

    Even if one of them did walk up to me, his two buddies may be behind me or to the extreme side shooting over the hood of a car or around the front or back of a van or both. But again, this is just all speculations - an attempt to identify as many realistic scenarios as reasonable and to try to identify best responses to the widest range of possibilities.

    When it's was a real as it was about a year ago, a lot of things I thought I could/would do went out the window.

    And you know, I realized if I was at work, my wife was completely vulnerable, which opens the door to kidnapping and all the leverage that implies. That was the scariest scenario i came up with.
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  13. #132
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    Guys, I realize some of us have come in late and may not have read the full scenario as it actually was. i take the blame for that for not fully describing the full details in the openning post, thinking that it would be better to be more general. But, some scenarios and responses got so far away from the situation as it really was, that I gradually included all the details so all would have a clear understanding of the actual situation. The full details are in post #124 so....

    This was not a matter of not going. It was not like I would be wandering into dangerous territory, it's that three BGs would be coming into my territory looking for me and mine. There is no option of carrying a long gun to the grocery store or armed buddies accompanying me to work or guarding my house. The only going is to Walmart, work, etc. and for that matter mowing the yard.
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  14. #133
    Member Array Trav's Avatar
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    And you know, I realized if I was at work, my wife was completely vulnerable, which opens the door to kidnapping and all the leverage that implies. That was the scariest scenario i came up with.
    Also the most realistic. Is she prepared to defend herself against three possibly armed men?

  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trav View Post
    Also the most realistic. Is she prepared to defend herself against three possibly armed men?
    Nope, and never will be. Not sure she could even if she could, if that makes any sense. As a matter of fact, even with all the tactical training I've had and all the shooting I do (between 6000-10000 rounds a year) I don't know if I can either.
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  16. #135
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    Tangle,
    You asked for suggestions and you received some you thought were viable some not, and that is fine. You can only use what is applicable to you, your situation, attributes, location, climate, etc.

    I understand your comments re your wife.

    There is only so much you can do without drastic alterations to your life. Even implementing those, you still have a life to live. Be as prepared as you feel practical, then go on with your life.

    These thoughts are based on experience.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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