What Is Wrong With Having a Gun With a Magazine Disconnect?

This is a discussion on What Is Wrong With Having a Gun With a Magazine Disconnect? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Another game of percentages and statistics IMO. I want to be able to dispatch the lone round in the chamber if I have to, between ...

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Thread: What Is Wrong With Having a Gun With a Magazine Disconnect?

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Another game of percentages and statistics IMO. I want to be able to dispatch the lone round in the chamber if I have to, between magazine changes. As far as the magazine disconnect and saving lives of our law enforcement officers, I'm good with the way things turned out. Then again......retention is key with your firearm. If you let it get away, you might as well hold it up to your own head. Magazine disconnect/safety won't stick another bean into the hill.

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  3. #32
    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    Some thoughts:

    o I purposely bought handguns without magazine disconnects (and manual safeties), because I wanted as few things between me and being able to get full use out of my handguns when the SHTF. So without a magazine disconnect if I drop the magazine by accident, or if I'm changing magazines during a lull, I still get to use the one cartridge that's still loaded.

    o During a retention scuffle I greatly doubt that I'd have my hand in position and would have the freedom of concern from other issues to be able to drop the magazine. And indeed my martial arts training has taught me that one of the worst things you can do in a fight is to narrow your focus down to one thing (like dropping the magazine) and to lose sight of the overall situation.

    o Of course, if someone grabs my gun before I'm aware enough to try to prevent it then it makes no difference whether it has a magazine disconnect or not.

    o I dry fire at home extensively using a LaserLyte LT Pro muzzle-mounted laser that flashes when the striker releases. Without a magazine disconnect all I have to do between shots is rack the slide. With a magazine disconnect I'd have to either modify a magazine to make the gun think it was always loaded and use this special magazine for practice, or load a magazine with snap caps and have to chase down ejected snap caps and reload the magazine every eight rounds or so; which would be a royal pain.

    o When I leave the car to go into an establishment where firearms are prohibited I remove my magazine, take it with me, and leave the handgun in a pouch under the seat with one round chambered. I don't like that if someone broke in, found my gun and tried to use it on me they could shoot me, but given how inaccurately most people seem to shoot I think the chances are well in my favor that they'd miss completely or hit me non-fatally. Even so, I really don't like the idea of making even one shot available to a bad guy. Since it's not currently possible for me to put a locking container in the car to hold my gun I can see that having a gun with a magazine disconnect would make the chambered round unavailable to a thief. This is the only advantage I can see to having a magazine disconnect, for me personally.

    FWIW
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    A lot has been said recently, specifically with the premiere of the new Ruger LC9 about the gun having a magazine disconnect is a deal breaker. Why? Is the magazine disconnect really a bad feature? Is it not in fact, often a life saving feature?

    Consider the fact that for decades, a large percentage of officers killed in the line of duty, are officers killed with their own gun after they were successfully disarmed during a gun grab situation. Whether the gun was snatched from their holster, or from their hands during a contact distance struggle, the end result was that they were immediately shot with their own gun once the suspect got control of it.

    Many officers who survived being disarmed can attribute their survival to the fact that during the struggle for their gun, they managed to drop the magazine before the person wrestled the gun away from them, and thus prevented them from being murdered with the one bullet left in the chamber when the gun was turned against them. That is, those who have a gun with a magazine disconnect feature.

    Many of those officers were then able to go for their back-up gun and then regain control of the situation. Others were able to subdue the person by other means. But the magazine disconnect allowed them to avoid being killed immediately after losing control of the gun when they were able to eject the magazine, thus allowing them time to go to other options.

    Because of high incidence of officers killed with their own guns, today more and more officers are now trained in effective handgun retention techniques. However, a large population of officers still are either not trained in handgun retention, or are not very adept at their gun retention skills.

    Okay, that speaks for police officers, but what about citizens who are ccw holders and carry a gun everyday? Or those who carry part time, when the mood suits them?

    Consider the fact that statistics clearly show that most gunfights, civilian and LEO's alike take place within 5-7 feet. We can split hairs over the exact distance, as I don't have the stats right in front of me right now, but suffice it to say, up close and personal. And a great deal of shootouts occur at arms length, within 2-3 feet.

    Many civilian gun carriers have never even heard of handgun retention, let alone been trained, or are adept at performing retention skills. If you carry a gun, you should ask yourself, "Is the possibility more likely that you may be involved in a struggle over your weapon during the midst of what will likely be your one and only deadly encounter? Or, is it more likely that you will be trying to reload your gun when the bad guy tries to overtake you, and forces you to fire that last bullet in the pipe while your magazine is out of your gun?" If you think the latter is the most likely situation, do you really think that in the overwhelming stress of the situation, you are really going to have one left in the pipe? Or, because of the startle effect of the whole situation, will you be pulling the trigger 4 or 5 times before you even realize your gun has run dry and the slide is locked back.

    Sure a case can be made for being in the unique situation of needing to fire that one one bullet left in the pipe while the magazine is out of the gun during a reload. But, what is the real likelihood of that being the case as opposed to being in the middle of a struggle over possession of your gun?Is a gun with a magazine disconnect really a deal breaker? Any thoughts on that?





    ^^^^^^^^^^Bark'n
    I respect and hold your opinions in high regard

    My firearms Do not have the disconnect.

    Not to pick a fight , just pointing to a different perspective, but could it be that those ccw holders, who have barely heard of weapon retention, will have the presence of mind in an all out struggle to actually REMEMBER to hit the mag release, therby giving themselves some additional time???

    Just food for thought.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

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  5. #34
    Member Array skorittnig's Avatar
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    Why not carry a p7m8? I can only imagine the look on the bad guy's face when he tries to pull the trigger on that...and silence?!?!?

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Ring's Avatar
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    + if in a fight for your gun, u can drop the mag, making it a brick...


    - if in a fight for your gun, and u drop the mag, its a brick...

    - 1 more part to fail

    - makes some trigger worse "the SR9 all ready has the pull of a staple gun"

    - if in the middle of a mag change, and u need to, you cant shoot

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Gideon's Avatar
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    One poster said it right; it's odd's and probabilities. Since there's equally good (or better choices) without a disconnect, I'll opt for that. I've had limited training as a civilian and a little as a retired military person. I've always been trained to never run a gun empty if you can help it. the idea of a combat reload is to leave the gun ready for action as you reload. What are the odds of having to do that in an SD situation? I can't imagine hardly at all but then again I think itls less likely that feature will ever save a life. I would speculate (and that's all it is) that it's more likely to cause a problem than it is to save someone from one. Failure to seat a mag or releasing it has to be a more common experience.

    Also, as a general principle, I'm hesitant to modify a gun other than to regarding safeties. I don't have any qualms about changing sights or getting an action job but as soon as I hear the word "disable" I can't help but wonder how that would look "after the fact". Of course, what are the odds of that or of even having to use a gun defensively so it's probably not a big deal at all but since there are equally good choices out there, I'll avoid them.

    I think some people think the very same thing about a thumb safety on a 1911

    Gideon

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Bark'n

    You make some good points, but I still do not like them and have never owned a gun with that feature.

    A few thoughts relative to your points.
    Officers in particular who do not train and practice for the various aspects of the job, I find I have little sympathy for. IIRC I only had one gun grab. I don't recall if he ran into my flashlight or my sap, but the cesation of his efforts was immediate. I consider me as my method of weapon retention and control, not some holster or device on the gun.

    Relative to reloading in a close situation, I would probably just go to a BUG and/or bust his head with the empty gun.

    CCWr's is IMO a much more open question, depending on a number of things including training, experience and other attributes.

    I have no objection to them for those who desire them, I do not.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  9. #38
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    I had no strong opinion on the Magazine Disconnect one way or the other. It wasn't until recently that I realized I don't own any guns with a magazine disconnect.

    I only learned about the possible benefits of them when it was mentioned as part of the Street Survival Seminar I attended in 1988 and again when I was becoming a weapon retention and disarming instructor. However the bulk of the program was on the actual techniques and skills used in teaching weapon retention and disarming.

    Again, I use retention skill sets to prevent gun grabs and used to teach those skill sets. As far as I was concerned, the magazine disconnect feature was just a design feature worth mentioning to students.

    It wasn't until I started reading people state a gun with that feature was such a deal breaker, and several others mention their dislike for them that I decided to inquire in this post.

    And to be honest, I'm now pretty much of the impression that I don't particularly care for them, for all the reasons mentioned.

    I've only owned one pistol with a magazine disconnect 30 years ago, and it was at a time when I was completely new to firearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    Not to pick a fight , just pointing to a different perspective, but could it be that those ccw holders, who have barely heard of weapon retention, will have the presence of mind in an all out struggle to actually REMEMBER to hit the mag release, therby giving themselves some additional time???

    Just food for thought.
    No fight picking at all oneshot... In answer to your "food for thought" question, I think that a majority of people you mentioned would not remember to eject the magazine in a tense struggle for control of their weapon.

    Thanks everyone for your replies. It's why I hang out here so much. Always something new. Always more to learn. And great people who hang out here.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    It's all a matter of who has possession of the gun, and at what point, as to which side of the argument one might be on.
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  11. #40
    VIP Member Array ron8903's Avatar
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    I dont like them or need them,
    Purchased a new SR9 a couple weeks ago, first
    thing I did was remove the mag. disconnect.
    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
    - Sir Winston Churchill

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    It doesn't make any difference to me either. I have one with a disconnect and used it to save my butt.

    I also have several without a disconnect and scewed up in a training session and accidently hit the mag release; dropping the magazine into the palm of my support hand. (Point being, mistakes can happen; BUT! They can be overcome regardless of firearm chosen.)

  13. #42
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevyguy85 View Post
    The reason I don't like having them in there is that w/ my p345 dry firing w/o the mag messes the gun up. Yes it says that right in the manual and yes I read it but when doing IDPA they require you to dry fire w/o a mag in.
    That should only happen if they don't know you have a mag disconnect. I am an IDPA Safety Officer. My suggestion to you is this: at the start of a stage, hand an empty magazine to the SO or scorekeeper and let them know it's because you need to show clear with a mag disconnect. When you unload and show clear, the SO should then give you back the mag he has verified as empty so you can pull the trigger and drop the hammer, then drop and stow the empty magazine.

    There is a very important reason for this. Some mag disconnect guns don't let you drop the hammer at all with the mag out, so an SO who doesn't let you use a mag would also completely fail to clear out those other types of guns (some Berettas come to mind). Bring it up with your MD to mention as part of the match safety briefing if you have to.

    No IDPA procedure should require you to wreck your firing pin.
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