Opinions on FN 5.7

This is a discussion on Opinions on FN 5.7 within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by kinoons It depends what 5.7x28 you're shooting. The factory FN stuff is a bit bland, but some small manufactures such as elite ...

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Thread: Opinions on FN 5.7

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinoons View Post
    It depends what 5.7x28 you're shooting. The factory FN stuff is a bit bland, but some small manufactures such as elite ammunition make much larger claims

    http://www.eliteammunition.net/civilian_data_sheet.html

    35 grains at 2100fps is nothing to sneeze at. Neither is 50gr at 1800fps. Given those numbers it doesn't seem like a 22mag from a rifle whips the fiveseven's butt. Rather it seems there neck in neck.
    Wow, that Elite ammo is indeed very hot.

    What I would find really interesting would be for them to load some of the tough Barnes bullets, like the 53 gr TSX.

    I'm amazed at the penetration that they got using just the 40 gr VMAX.

    I did not realize that this cartridge could be loaded this hot. Handloads, though, can cause problems in this pistol, just like in any other:



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  3. #32
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    I believe it's busted.

    A little J-B Weld could fix that.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    Just posting a link to other websites like you did, without actually discussing any issues in any meaningful way, is also against the forum rules for this website. So just by making your post, you violated the terms of posting here. Just look at rule #7, if you don't believe me. Your post fits the last description in that rule to a tea.

    If you have a real point to make, then why not just spit it out and actually say it, instead of playing coy games like this?

    .
    The point I've made is that people who have actually used the 5.7x28 against human beings have found it wanting. I provided a link to the thread from which I was pulling the quotes. Others who are not so intent on pointedly ignoring information that conflicts with their views might find it useful.

    I find it very curious that, on a forum meant for sharing information, you are so quick to dismiss both terminal ballistics research and reports or real world usage. Doing so without providing anything to support your position when you deride others for not backing up their posts is just comical.

  5. #34
    Member Array Top Strap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    I believe it's busted.

    A little J-B Weld could fix that.
    And a putty knife. Yep! Thats what I'm thinkin!

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    The point I've made is that people who have actually used the 5.7x28 against human beings have found it wanting.

    I find it very curious that, on a forum meant for sharing information, you are so quick to dismiss both terminal ballistics research and reports or real world usage.

    What specfic research and real world usage are you talking about? I've seen absolutely no research data presented here or even referred to, nor any real world shooting reports documented either. Everything has just been totally anecdotal and opinions, with absolutely nothing factual offered to back the assertions up. And that is a most valid point to bring up.


    Doing so without providing anything to support your position when you deride others for not backing up their posts is just comical.
    Oh, but you see, I am not making any assertions or claims regarding the 5.7 round having any sort of superiority over the 9mm. I don't own the gun myself, and have no plans to. I don't have a position to support.

    I am simply very skeptical of these claims that allege that the 5.7 round is ineffective and inferior to the 9mm. And that is because all of the arguments made here claiming superiority for the 9mm have been so extremely hollow, without any real data or actual facts presented to back them up.

    Name one single real world shooting that has been documented and analyzed here in this discussion. Name any specific research data presented here discounting the 5.7 as being an effective cartridge, and the source publication that it came from.

    But you cannot do that. These arguments that have been presented here are nothing more than smoke and mirrors. That is all they are.

    .

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array ripley16's Avatar
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    Quote:
    The 5.7x28 shooting results we're aware of so far are promising. I will try to tune you in on some accounts..


    - The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident.

    - Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find.

    - The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."

    - Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation.

    - Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.

    - Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived.

    - I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."

    - Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject.

    - Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.

    - I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything.
    http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1442

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    What specfic research and real world usage are you talking about? I've seen absolutely no research data presented here or even referred to, nor any real world shooting reports documented either. Everything has just been totally anecdotal and opinions, with absolutely nothing factual offered to back the assertions up. And that is a most valid point to bring up.




    Oh, but you see, I am not making any assertions or claims regarding the 5.7 round having any sort of superiority over the 9mm. I don't own the gun myself, and have no plans to. I don't have a position to support.

    I am simply very skeptical of these claims that allege that the 5.7 round is ineffective and inferior to the 9mm. And that is because all of the arguments made here claiming superiority for the 9mm have been so extremely hollow, without any real data or actual facts presented to back them up.

    Name one single real world shooting that has been documented and analyzed here in this discussion. Name any specific research data presented here discounting the 5.7 as being an effective cartridge, and the source publication that it came from.

    But you cannot do that. These arguments that have been presented here are nothing more than smoke and mirrors. That is all they are.

    .
    I guess an article by one of the most respected and trusted terminal ballistics experts in the world and finding the posts of a Jacksonville SWAT officer are just smoke and mirrors. You can continue refusing to believe them, I really don't care.

    There's also the matter of this and this. Even the 40gr TSX fired from a ps90 (16" barrel) only manages to match the wound profile of a .380 fmj. Even from a rifle this round does not move fast enough to cause damage via a temporary cavity, so it has to rely on the same wounding mechanism a pistol does. Permanent crush cavity is the only thing that matters, and tiny bullets moving under ~2000 fps at the muzzle just aren't going to perform well at that.

  9. #38
    Member Array kinoons's Avatar
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    Texag,

    Again, sir, you are using examples from the very bland factory loaded ammunition. As I posted above elite ammunition is producing rounds that far out perform the factory ammunition. For the ps90 they have 50gr rounds going 2477fps at the barrel and 30gr rounds going 2995fps at the barrel. And this is the stuff they're willing to sell to civilians, not what is available to LEOs.

  10. #39
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    I have noticed that when I'm playing playing Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 2, its takes several rounds from my P90 to kill an opponent, whereas my M9 can get headshot kills fairly regularly. Of course, in Hardcore mode, the P90 usually kills in one shot. So are we talking Hardcore or normal mode here, people?
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  11. #40
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    "...elite ammunition is producing rounds that far out perform the factory ammunition."

    Interesting but still not extra-special. It is a stretch for the 5.7X28 to even approach, not equal the mild-mannered .22 Hornet, a cartridge that's been on the scene some 80 years now, and that is only from a long barrel rather than a handgun-length barrel. It isn't a magic cartridge and one can't make a silk purse out of the sow's ear that this though-provoking but quite small, medium velocity round represents.

    It could be great fun to own, shoot and handload but isn't a replacement for traditionally effective metallic cartridges we have long used in handguns. Moreover, it's recoil properties won't make up for needed shooting skills and won't provide an "edge." It really doesn't deserve wide popularity in the marketplace.

    Only my opinion.

    I have no idea how cartridge comparisons and computer games relate.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinoons View Post
    Texag,

    Again, sir, you are using examples from the very bland factory loaded ammunition. As I posted above elite ammunition is producing rounds that far out perform the factory ammunition. For the ps90 they have 50gr rounds going 2477fps at the barrel and 30gr rounds going 2995fps at the barrel. And this is the stuff they're willing to sell to civilians, not what is available to LEOs.
    I went to eliteammunition.com and looked at the limited info they provide on their loads. Predictably, there was no info on the recovered diameter of the round, just penetration and temporary cavity (which does not cause measurable damage at the velocities generated by the 5.7 pistol).

  13. #42
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    I guess an article by one of the most respected and trusted terminal ballistics experts in the world and finding the posts of a Jacksonville SWAT officer are just smoke and mirrors. You can continue refusing to believe them, I really don't care.
    As I repeatedly said earlier, that post from that so called expert was so shabbily documented as to be laughable. He presented no data at all to support his positions. We are all supposed to accept his word as "fact", just because of some alleged reputation that he has? Give us a break. And I've seen no information posted here from some alleged Jacksonville SWAT officer. You are imagining information that has not been part of this discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Texag;1859436
    There's also the matter of [URL="http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2558.htm"
    this[/URL] and this. Even the 40gr TSX fired from a ps90 (16" barrel) only manages to match the wound profile of a .380 fmj. Even from a rifle this round does not move fast enough to cause damage via a temporary cavity, so it has to rely on the same wounding mechanism a pistol does. Permanent crush cavity is the only thing that matters, and tiny bullets moving under ~2000 fps at the muzzle just aren't going to perform well at that.
    I see these new references posted by you, but there is nothing in them stating these conclusions that you have arrived at. That is just your opinion, and nothing more.

    Besides, there is no such thing as a 40 gr TSX bullet. Barnes has never even manufactured such a bullet.

    .

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    As I repeatedly said earlier, that post from that so called expert was so shabbily documented as to be laughable. He presented no data at all to support his positions. We are all supposed to accept his word as "fact", just because of some alleged reputation that he has? Give us a break. And I've seen no information posted here from some alleged Jacksonville SWAT officer. You are imagining information that has not been part of this discussion.




    I see these new references posted by you, but there is nothing in them stating these conclusions that you have arrived at. That is just your opinion, and nothing more.

    Besides, there is no such thing as a 40 gr TSX bullet. Barnes has never even manufactured such a bullet.

    .
    Does this have to be spoon fed to you? Look at the data for the 5.7, then look at the data for .380. It's all on the same site.

    The site lists the 40gr barnes load as experimental. I expect you will now tell me it didn't happen and it could in no way have similar performance to the 45 gr tsx loaded by eliteammo that is most likely their best performing load for defensive use.

  15. #44
    Member Array kinoons's Avatar
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    At what speed does hydrostatic shock take place then? I thought that at 2600fps-3000fps you can get hydrostatic shock. Some of the elite ammo rounds do have this velocity from the Fiveseven. Hydrostatic shock is possible at 500psi and likely at 1000psi. Small 3/16" spheres caused 600psi at 3000fps at only a 45' angle. Larger spheres (bullets) at the same velocity at angles approaching 90' would cause even more pressure (such as 5.7x28)

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki?search=Hydrostatic+shock

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