Range Report: Sig P229 SAS 40 & Sig 357!

This is a discussion on Range Report: Sig P229 SAS 40 & Sig 357! within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Okay, I met forum member Rocnerd and his lovely wife at the American Gun Range this morning in Broward County, FL. They had already secured ...

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Thread: Range Report: Sig P229 SAS 40 & Sig 357!

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Range Report: Sig P229 SAS 40 & Sig 357!

    Okay, I met forum member Rocnerd and his lovely wife at the American Gun Range this morning in Broward County, FL. They had already secured their lanes. After exchanging warm greetings and getting my own lane next to theirs we hit the firing line.

    Rocnerd:

    Lady/Mrs Rocnerd:

    Lady Rocnerd was test firing HER new Sig P239 9mm. While, husband Rocnerd was shooting his new toy a S&W 41 magnum with a 4" barrel. I had my Glock M27....but I was really after Rocnerd's kind offer to shoot HIS SAS P229!

    The first thing I noticed was the hand filling grip and the heft!

    Both of those were factors in reducing the felt recoil especially when I compared it to the Glock M27 (the Glock is noticeably lighter).

    I was very impressed with the smoothness of the DAK action on the SAS. Light DA pull. At the trigger break, there is the option of allowing the trigger to fully return to the forward position for another long smooth light pull....OR....you can "feel" the trigger reset with a rather distinct click and start at THAT point to trip the next shot off. The pull is suddenly a lot tougher but only to the point of a standard DA Sig trigger pull at a little bit over 10 pounds versus the 6.5 DAK pull.

    As I shoot the SAS, note the case extracting upper right:

    The P229 is extremely accurate at combat ranges between 7 & 10 yards. I have some pix I took at the range that I'll post along with this report.

    My B27 target. Head cluster is the 40 and the COM area is the 357 Sig.:

    Mrs Rocnerd is a fairly novice shooter and was trying out her new P239 9mm which is a distinct jump in power from the PPK/s she used to have. She was doing very well. I let her try my M27 (40) at her request. Unfortunately I was out of "ball" ammo that was lighter in kick, so she got a magazine of GOLD DOT and it jumped pretty good in her hands. But she wasn't the least bit intimidated and that is a testament to the tutelage of Rocnerd.



    BTW, Rocnerd (REALLY NICE GUY!) is a heckuva shot and very smooth and precise in his movements on the line. I was impressed.

    Then we switched to the Sig 357 barrel. Rocnerd provided me with a box of Winchester ball and I bought a box of defensive JHP ammo to see how it might perform.

    Here is that shot (I varied the ranges to between 7 & 10 yards).:



    No change in accuracy. Not as much recoil as the 40...at least that was my impression. The report (noise) was similar to the 40 and not too bad. Which is odd, because in the outdoor environments in which I have previously encountered the Sig 357 round it seemed a heckuva lot LOUDER!

    Between the Sig 357 barrel and the standard 40 cal SAS...Rocnerd allowed me to put about 150 rds down range thru his P229 SAS. I am very grateful and have made a decision that my next carry gun is going to be the P229 SAS. I will also get the Sig 357 barrel to give me multicaliber capability.
    Last edited by ExSoldier; July 15th, 2006 at 03:37 PM.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Member Array 1man's Avatar
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    Looks like you all had a great time, GOOD 2 GO!!!
    Train how you Fight
    Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast!
    "Anything you do can get you killed, including nothing." Murphy's Combat Law

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    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    So, it looks like your opinion of the .357SIG has changed since your reply to me in this thread.

    http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...625#post151625

    I currently carry the DA/SA P229, but have been thinking about the SAS. Thanks for putting one through the ringer for me.
    Last edited by p8riot; July 15th, 2006 at 05:39 PM.
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

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    What a great session Jim - always good when we (rarely) get to meet up with fellow members.

    Your B27 looks well perforated!! Nice.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

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    Member Array Rocnerd's Avatar
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    Well, I'm blushing with ExSoldier's nice comments.
    We did have a nice session. I got to shoot his Kel tec carbine which was more accurate than I would have thought. Ex's shooting was dead on and he gave my Lady Rocnerd (I like the sound of that) some good sound shooting advice. It helps to have other knowledgeable people, not of the husband type persuasion, giving advice. She loves her new Sig 239 (DAK trigger) and was looking for more ammo once she went through the 200 rounds I brought for her thinking that would be enough, yeah right. It was a good time and I'm glad I could help a fellow forum member out with a test run on a potential new acquisition. Ex invited us both out to his club's IDPA shoots, which both the Lady Roc and I were more than interested in doing. We will be seeing you there Ex.

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Question Q for Rocnerd

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocnerd
    Well, I'm blushing with ExSoldier's nice comments.
    We did have a nice session. I got to shoot his Kel tec carbine which was more accurate than I would have thought. Ex's shooting was dead on and he gave my Lady Rocnerd (I like the sound of that) some good sound shooting advice. It helps to have other knowledgeable people, not of the husband type persuasion, giving advice. She loves her new Sig 239 (DAK trigger) and was looking for more ammo once she went through the 200 rounds I brought for her thinking that would be enough, yeah right. It was a good time and I'm glad I could help a fellow forum member out with a test run on a potential new acquisition. Ex invited us both out to his club's IDPA shoots, which both the Lady Roc and I were more than interested in doing. We will be seeing you there Ex.
    I calls 'em as I sees 'em and you guys are GREAT.

    I do have a question though. The sights on the SAS, did they come that way in the three dot tritium from the factory? The article I read on the P229 SAS seems to suggest that Sig puts a tritium front sight on but it ships with the stock rear sight which is the European style single post "notch" and is not illuminated. Did you order it specifically that way or did you put on an aftermarket rear sight? If it came that way did it increase the price?

    I look forward to seeing you guys at our club matches in South Florida. Anybody in the Miami-Dade or Broward area who wants to visit a SUPERB IDPA club should visit this website:

    http://www.tssa.net

    Be a good idea, if you enjoy this type of shooting, to go ahead and join the IDPA organization so you can get "classified" with a specific style of firearm. Thereafter you only compete against folks in your classification strata and with the same gun class. It explains all at: http://www.idpa.com

    There are only a few basic classes of gun:
    Custom Defensive Pistol: Basically this is a 1911 SA
    Enhanced Service Pistol: Same thing but in 9mm. This is usually the Browning Hi-Power folks and the like. If it fires from a cocked and locked hammer with a caliber less than 45.
    Stock Service Pistol: Any gun that fires from the position of DA or DAO on the first shot.
    Then there is the Stock and Enhanced Service REVOLVER classifications. Yes, IDPA is designed to be "revolver neutral." But there are not too many revolver shooters in IDPA...and those that are there are usually pretty durn GOOD. So if you qualify "Novice" or "Marksman" in ESR or SSR you might wind up with 1st 2nd AND 3rd place in a match 'cause you're the only competitor at that level. LOL
    Last edited by ExSoldier; July 15th, 2006 at 08:47 PM.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Personal Experience Always Helps

    Quote Originally Posted by p8riot
    So, it looks like your opinion of the .357SIG has changed since your reply to me in this thread.

    http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...625#post151625

    I currently carry the DA/SA P229, but have been thinking about the SAS. Thanks for putting one through the ringer for me.
    Mmmmmmm....mmmmmm! That CROW sure is TASTY! Yup I have indeed changed my mind on the 357 Sig. I probably won't however lay in a SHTF stockpile of ammo. Maybe 500 rds for THAT + carry ammo and practice stuff. This is versus the thousands upon thousands of 5.56mm and the 7.62x51 stuff as well as the 45 and 9mm and 40. If I ever REALLY need all of that ammo...well.... color me at the ALAMO or a facsimile of Dien Bien Phu. In other words the outcome probably won't be of great importance to me.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Hey, Ex, you think that the surroundings could be absorbing the part of the .357Sig noise that we notice so much. Having worked with sound system quite a bit, I know that lower sounds are omni-directional and higher sounds are uni-directional. That's why subwoofers fire at the floor. The bass sounds are often felt more than heard. I think that the part of the .357Sig sound that both you and I notice is the higher pitched sound. In an indoor range environment with all the surfaces to absorb the sound and deflect it in odd directions the high pitch just may sort of disappear because it is not able to come directly at us. Just a though I haven't fired my .357Sig at an indoor range, but the first thing I noticed about it outdoors was how much noisier it was than a 9mm, .40 cal, or .45ACP. A little 2" barrel .38 is loud, but the .357Sig makes it seem soft.

    Glad you changed your mind about the .357Sig. I really like mine. That said I had better like it because the ammo is priced out of sight. Right after I bought it and the wife saw what that a box of 50 WWB at Walmart cost $14.98 and a box of 100 WWB in 9mm cost $11.98, she said, "We are going to have to take up reloading." That means I'll start that faster than expected. I thought I would have to convince her and demonstrate that it could save money. When she brings it up, it gets done because it's her idea.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier
    Mmmmmmm....mmmmmm! That CROW sure is TASTY! Yup I have indeed changed my mind on the 357 Sig. I probably won't however lay in a SHTF stockpile of ammo. Maybe 500 rds for THAT + carry ammo and practice stuff. This is versus the thousands upon thousands of 5.56mm and the 7.62x51 stuff as well as the 45 and 9mm and 40. If I ever REALLY need all of that ammo...well.... color me at the ALAMO or a facsimile of Dien Bien Phu. In other words the outcome probably won't be of great importance to me.
    Understand. I have over 15,000 rounds of 9mm for my SIG 226s and MP5A3, and 10,000 rounds each of 7.62X39, and 7.62X51 for my AKs & M1As, plus bulk bullets, primers and powder. The .357SIG is my carry gun, I have a different strategy for SHTF.
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb A good point!

    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg
    Hey, Ex, you think that the surroundings could be absorbing the part of the .357Sig noise that we notice so much. Having worked with sound system quite a bit, I know that lower sounds are omni-directional and higher sounds are uni-directional. That's why subwoofers fire at the floor. The bass sounds are often felt more than heard. I think that the part of the .357Sig sound that both you and I notice is the higher pitched sound. In an indoor range environment with all the surfaces to absorb the sound and deflect it in odd directions the high pitch just may sort of disappear because it is not able to come directly at us. Just a though I haven't fired my .357Sig at an indoor range, but the first thing I noticed about it outdoors was how much noisier it was than a 9mm, .40 cal, or .45ACP. A little 2" barrel .38 is loud, but the .357Sig makes it seem soft.
    Good point. Now that I think about this issue...every time I have complained about the noise on the 357 Sig, it HAS been at an outdoor venue. We can have multiple courses of fire running simultaneously along the firing line for my IDPA club and I can ALWAYS tell when somebody at the other end is firing a 357 Sig. It just has a very distinctive bark.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Senior Member Array WJP9's Avatar
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    An excellent report!!! Great you folks had the chance to meet---and even better you shared an enjoyable shooting session.

    How do you feel the sig stacked up against your glock for recoil, accuracy, and relative size???
    -Bill

    "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Glock M27 v Sig P229 SAS?

    Quote Originally Posted by WJP9
    An excellent report!!! How do you feel the sig stacked up against your glock for recoil, accuracy, and relative size???
    Good question.

    I love my M27 but it's not a perfect ergonomic "FIT" in the grip if you know what I mean. OTOH, the P229 fit my hand like EXCALIBUR must have felt to the "Boy King!"

    But I was struck by it's heft. It's heavier than the M27. But it's a tradeoff I can definitely live with!

    Since it IS heavier than the M27, I also found it to (IMHO) have less felt recoil in both the 40 and the 357 Sig. In fact the 357 Sig kicks less than the 40!

    Accuracy? Hmmmmmm I think part of the charm to the P229 SAS is the DAK trigger. That trigger has such a smooth and light take up, it has an enhancing effect to overall accuracy. I quickly found I was able to easily "stage" the trigger and adjust my point of aim when placing shots for precision (as opposed to combat speed)...something I can't really do with the Glock. OTOH, I can shoot the Glock waaaaay FASTER than I can with the P229 because the Glock trigger resets much earlier in the trigger return cycle. The P229 has an early set too...if you want to use it...but the price you pay is a much heavier pull at THAT point, much like the standard initial DA trigger pull of a non-DAK Sig....say about 10.5 pounds.

    Still, in all, I don't see this gun as a rapid fire platform like my Beretta M92.

    Back to the question at hand: Accuracy is excellent at combat ranges of 7-10 yards. But it's about on par with the M27. So....BOTH will do the job.

    Still, I used my Beretta M92FS at the State of FL IDPA match a few weeks ago and I felt that was a very good choice since several of the stages were ranged at 20 YARDS. I don't know how the Sig P229 would have handled that. But I do recall being distinctly THANKFUL I hadn't used the Glock. Especially since the 20 yard stage was in total darkness (flashlight strongly recommended)! Ahhh the benefits of having such a match at an indoor range.

    The P229 easily cycled all the various loads of exotic defensive ammo I brought: MagSafe, RBCD, and more standard loads like Golden Saber and Hydra-Shok. Oh and the new Hornady TAP ammo. Point of impact did not change for any of the loads at the ranges with which I was working. It probably would, if I lengthened the range.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Member Array Rocnerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier
    I do have a question though. The sights on the SAS, did they come that way in the three dot tritium from the factory? The article I read on the P229 SAS seems to suggest that Sig puts a tritium front sight on but it ships with the stock rear sight which is the European style single post "notch" and is not illuminated. Did you order it specifically that way or did you put on an aftermarket rear sight? If it came that way did it increase the price?
    I should have mentioned this, but it slipped my mind. I did have new sites installed since it came set up as you mention above, and I hated the rear site. So, off with that and on with a nice Meprolite rear site and Voila! A site system I am much happier with.

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    Member Array DonGlock26's Avatar
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    The P229 is a great pistol. It really shines in .357Sig. I find it to be very easy to shoot and accurate.

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    Talking

    Good Thread...! Nice to see forum members bonding on the outside... Nice gun that SAS it is there too...!
    ::: NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, Military Veteran, Public Safety Professional :::

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