.45 Hardball as a carry round?

This is a discussion on .45 Hardball as a carry round? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Based on gelatin test data I have seen, modern .45 hollowpoints like Winchester Rangers or Federal HSTs will penetrate about 13 inches and expand to ...

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Thread: .45 Hardball as a carry round?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Gelatin test data.

    Based on gelatin test data I have seen, modern .45 hollowpoints like Winchester Rangers or Federal HSTs will penetrate about 13 inches and expand to almost 1.0 inches in diameter. That generally prevents excess penetration of a human torso and confines the damage to the person targeted, rather than others behind the target. A FMJ .45 bullet, based on the same gelatin tests, can penetrate much more than 13 inches, making a smaller hole in the target and endangering others. I wouldn't use the FMJ for defense for these reasons.
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  3. #17
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    My gut said that it shouldn't be a problem but then I did a little research. There are other sources, but this is cited well, so I don't have a problem using Wiki for this data:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP#Performance

    Based on this limited data with the Remy FMJ 230gr round, the penetration (27 inches), cavity size (less than 1/2 inch) and OSS of <65% (although OSS is overrated IMO), I'd stear clear of FMJ.

    Just goes (further) to show how stupid New Jersey is.
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  4. #18
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    Think about it, back when we carried 1911's in the USMC it was always 230 ball or full metal jacket ammo, period. I don't think the military would have stuck with it if it didn't do the job intended. Sure the trauma from a hollow point generally speaking is greater but trauma without "enough" penetration is also worthless. 230 ball works for me.
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  5. #19
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrol View Post
    Think about it, back when we carried 1911's in the USMC it was always 230 ball or full metal jacket ammo, period. I don't think the military would have stuck with it if it didn't do the job intended. Sure the trauma from a hollow point generally speaking is greater but trauma without "enough" penetration is also worthless. 230 ball works for me.
    Of course, the USMC didn't care about over-penetration back then (or now, FTMP), and also, the Hague Convention prohibited them from being carried and used. I'm not saying that FMJ won't do the job...up to an hour ago, I thought it would. The limited research I've done since them indicates that it is significantly less effective. The fact that the USMC didn't use them has more to do with rules than effectiveness.

    I will concede that if I were designing a handgun projectile for military use by the general rifleman, I would design a high speed, penetrating round, but for personal defense in a one-off scenario (the OP's question), hollow point is much better due to its effectivness and lower chance of overpenetration.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkruf View Post
    I'd hate to be cleared because I fired in self defense, but then convicted because my bullet hit and killed an innocent that was behind the perp. Once again, especially when choosing to carry FMJ, make sure your background is clear or you could end up in the slammer for defending yourself.
    Someone is pointing a gun at you with every intent to kill you. People are somewhere in the background. Do you save yourself, shoot, and hope the bullets doesn't penetrate, or do you sacrifice yourself because of the chance it might?

    Hollow points can penetrate. Don't waver off with likeihoods, there's no time to analysis, no time for ifs.
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  7. #21
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    230 grain round nose FMJ works great on critters. When I used to occasionally carry a 1911 .45 I was willing to tote it with military ball equivalent.
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  8. #22
    Member Array patrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katmandoo122 View Post
    Of course, the USMC didn't care about over-penetration back then (or now, FTMP), and also, the Hague Convention prohibited them from being carried and used. I'm not saying that FMJ won't do the job...up to an hour ago, I thought it would. The limited research I've done since them indicates that it is significantly less effective. The fact that the USMC didn't use them has more to do with rules than effectiveness.

    I will concede that if I were designing a handgun projectile for military use by the general rifleman, I would design a high speed, penetrating round, but for personal defense in a one-off scenario (the OP's question), hollow point is much better due to its effectivness and lower chance of overpenetration.
    Good articulation, however I have been to Federal/Speer ballistic workshops where all they talk about is hand gun and rifle ammo related to it's effect on the human body. The fact is where handguns are concerned "over" penetration is OVERRATED because it simply isn't as much an issue as a round that fails to penetrate the needed amount to create both blood loss and trauma. That over penetrating talk sounds like the rhetoric of the desk jockey chiefs who know nothing of real ballistics related to handgun ammo. Read the FBI report again. 230 ball or full metal jacket does the job. So doe's 10mm and .357 magnum. The biggest issue is hitting your target in vital area's after that it's proper penetration and trauma. To make a generalized statement such as a Hollow point is more effective to stop or kill a person is not only wrong it's not true.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    .45 ACP Ball is what I carry...........IMO, good bullet placement and penetration is what it's all about.

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    I'd carry it if that's what I needed to carry, but I've discovered something that makes me feel infinitely more secure.

    Seems my little Springfield Armory GI.45 Micro Compact feeds JHP just fine. I've gone through about 60 rounds without a hiccup. My buddy, a local deputy, can't shoot hollow points in his 1911, but little one handles them just fine.

    So of course he's looking for a way to get me to trade the little buddy away ...... not gonna happen.
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  11. #25
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    Seconded Patrol's post. Over-penetration should only be a concern of yours if your name is Dirk. Doesn't anyone else find it absurd how many hours the gun forum folks like us spend debating which round would have been more effective when we read some report about some guy who got shot 11 times and still lived ..... and yet I've never actually read anything about a police officer's bullet passing through someone and hitting someone else?

    Under penetration is a real problem. Many police officers, military personnel, and other combatants have been killed due to the "other guy" continuing to fight because a bullet didn't penetrate deep enough. Over penetration is an internet myth. Many of these over penetration concerns come from decades ago when cops justified why they loaded their .357s with .38 specials, "Because we don't want to hit an innocent person" .... the real reason was because it was painful to shoot and no cop wants to look like a wuss.

    I challenge anyone to find me a case where an FMJ *handgun* bullet from a common autoloading cartridge (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, 10mm, .38 Super, etc) penetrated someone center of mass (none of this, "it went through the web of his hand and then continued on to hit the 5-yr-old across the street" crap), exited, then continued on and retained enough energy to penetrate the clothing and skin of another person. I want to see news report or police report ... not, "I heard from a friend of a friend on the internet that it happened".

    10mm is about the only caliber I'll carry a HP in. For everything else, there's FMJ. I want two holes in my assailant for every 1 that I fire. I might need my round to go through a thick jacket, hooded sweatshirt, t-shirt, skin, 5" of fat, 4" of muscle, and a rib to reach a perp's heart or lungs. What if I'm firing broad side to my attacker? I want that round to go through his arm, ribcage, both lungs, out the other side, and through the other arm. Ain't gonna happen, but I can wish.

    Read the FBI report of wounding factors and effectiveness again .... it contains sensible, professional, easily read conclusions on this and many topics of cartridge selection: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Yep, Ihave 230gr. ball loaded in my 1911...not range ammo (WWB for example), but Federal 230gr. FMJ. Very little concern of over pen. I'm more concerned about misses and richoches(sp?) than over pen.

  13. #27
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    I agree with you boys................as I said Penetration and Bullet Placement is what counts for me.

    I love it when I read, where some fella says he wants low velocity ammo.....IMO, no clue.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    I'd carry it if that's what I needed to carry, but I've discovered something that makes me feel infinitely more secure.

    Seems my little Springfield Armory GI.45 Micro Compact feeds JHP just fine. I've gone through about 60 rounds without a hiccup. My buddy, a local deputy, can't shoot hollow points in his 1911, but little one handles them just fine.

    So of course he's looking for a way to get me to trade the little buddy away ...... not gonna happen.
    Tell him to get some high quality magazines designed to eliminate hollow-point feeding issues such as the Wilson 47D or Wilson ETM as well as the Tripp Research Cobra mag.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pogo2 View Post
    Based on gelatin test data I have seen, modern .45 hollowpoints like Winchester Rangers or Federal HSTs will penetrate about 13 inches and expand to almost 1.0 inches in diameter. That generally prevents excess penetration of a human torso and confines the damage to the person targeted, rather than others behind the target. A FMJ .45 bullet, based on the same gelatin tests, can penetrate much more than 13 inches, making a smaller hole in the target and endangering others. I wouldn't use the FMJ for defense for these reasons.
    I know about the gelatin tests, but how much distance was used to derive the data. Just curious!
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  16. #30
    Member Array Sleipnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pogo2 View Post
    Based on gelatin test data I have seen, modern .45 hollowpoints like Winchester Rangers or Federal HSTs will penetrate about 13 inches and expand to almost 1.0 inches in diameter. That generally prevents excess penetration of a human torso and confines the damage to the person targeted, rather than others behind the target. A FMJ .45 bullet, based on the same gelatin tests, can penetrate much more than 13 inches, making a smaller hole in the target and endangering others. I wouldn't use the FMJ for defense for these reasons.
    My one beef with gelatin tests is that they do not simulate materials denser than human flesh. A sizable portion of mass in a person is bone and will significantly hamper penetration; it's a lucky shot that only hits tissue and no bone in center of mass.

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