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Is it just me or is there a lot of superficial hype about Glock’s gen 4?

5K views 38 replies 21 participants last post by  crzy4guns 
#1 ·
After much reading, both in print and online about the new Glock gen 4s, I decided I had to have one. I checked around, located one and took off with intent to buy it. When I got to the store, I looked at a G17 gen 4 side by side a G17 gen 3. So I’m thinkin’ this side by side comparison will be the best way to see the gen 4 advantages. It didn’t work out that way and I walked away with little interest in purchasing a gen 4 for nearly $100 more than a gen 3 would cost. But let me not leave this with you thinking this was a money decision – it was not; I had the cash; I had the intent to buy; it was the features or better put, the lack of features of the highly hyped and touted gen 4 that closed the deal, not the money.

To fully realize the hype surrounding the gen 4, one has to be aware of historic claims made about Glocks. Let’s start with the grip size. I can’t remember how many times I’ve read that the Glock system has a size to fit all hands, i.e. the full size for big hands, the mid size for smaller hands, etc. Guess what? There is no difference in grip size other than the length! The girth is the same at all points up and down the grip. One could, and some have, cut down the grip of a full size and it becomes a mid-size grip. The trigger reach is still the same, the girth is still the same; it’s just shorter – how does that fit smaller hands better? Now, no doubt some will have a preference for one over the other, but that’s a different thing.

Now let’s move forward to the gen 4 with the back straps to fit all hands. Guess what? The gun without any back straps is the same size as a gen 3 grip! When I was handling the guns in the store, I carefully noted the feel and the reach to the trigger – they’re exactly the same, if not exactly, they are so close that if I were blindfolded with thin leather gloves on (so I couldn’t feel differences in grip texture), you could hand me 10 different Glocks and I would not be able to pick out the gen 4s from the gen 3s. So what do the back straps do? They accommodate larger hands, not smaller hands! But we read that these back straps solve the one-size-fits-all problem – it does not! Those that have smaller hands will have the same problem with a gen 4 they have with the gen 3. For example, in the Glock Magazine 2011 issue, they list the specs for the gen 4 trigger reach. The trigger reach for a G17 gen 4 WITHOUT a back strap is 2.76 inches. Measuring the trigger reach on my G17 gen 3 with my digital calipers gives 2.79 inches or 0.03” difference which is, of course, insignificant. The trigger reach on a gen 4 with the medium back strap is 2.83 inches or right at an 1/8 inch longer. So the reach for small hands has not been addressed at all by the gen 4 and its back straps.

Let’s now move to the softer recoil claim. I’m just gonna say I’m veeeery skeptical about this claim. I will have to shoot a gen 3 and gen 4 side by side in a blindfold test to believe this. This same claim has been made in the past about Glock’s recoil. It is claimed that because a Glock sits very low in the grip, that more of the recoil is rearward and hence less muzzle flip is generated. Also, the flex of the polymer frame supposedly softens the recoil. So this is not the first time we’ve heard about softer recoil with a Glock.

The problem is, regardless of the springing system, be it one or two springs, the slide has to move and stop in the same distance. To me, that results in the absorption of the same recoil momentum and energy. It may be possible by modifying slide velocity that a softer felt recoil results – I seriously doubt that, but it’s possible. The slide velocity could be slow or fast at the start, and the opposite at the end, but either way an impulse effect would be generated. It may be that a human being would perceive an impulse as softer than linearly decreasing the slide velocity. But again, I will have to shoot a gen 3 and gen 4 side by side in a blindfold test to believe this.

How about the ambi mag release? Well, it isn’t ambi – it’s switchable. This is the one thing that I find attractive about gen 4s at this point. I really prefer the mag release on the right side of the gun, and in fact, I have switched the mag releases on my Sig Classics to the right side. For me, the right side is much more accessible and positive with the trigger finger than the thumb. So, I find the switchable mag release a significant asset.

However, the right side activation on the gen 4, for me, has not been proven yet. I have the true ambi mag release on my G21 SF (and picitinny rails) and it doesn’t work well. I suspect the gen 4s are better. My initial assessment is that it appears the right side mag release may not be as advantageous as the Sig due to its position. It just ‘feels’ like the release is further to the rear than the Sigs, making it a bit less assessable.

However, I do like the gen 4 mag release button – I think it’s a significant improvement. It reaches back a bit further than the pre-gen 4 releases, doesn’t appear to protrude quite as much, and should be more thumb accessible, but I didn’t find a significant difference in my initial look.

A real down side to the gen 4 switchable mag release is that pre-gen 4 mags won’t work in a gen 4. That’s not true of the Sig mag system. Let’s say you have a G17 gen 3 and six mags for it and you buy a G17 gen 4. None of those gen 3 mags will work in it! That’s not good! If you need/want six mags, you’re gonna have to buy four more – that’s about $100 worth of mags.

So, what is the major assets of the gen 4s? It’s certainly not a smaller grip. I seriously question that it has significantly reduced recoil, but I’m open minded about that until I can test it myself. Is it the switchable mag release? Is it the grip texture? I’ll give it a plus on the grip texture, but I like my G17 RTF2 that’s even more aggressive than the gen 4, but I could settle for the gen 4 texture. I guess the bottom line is, just what is it we get for nearly a $100 more for a gen 4?

Let’s say the switchable mag release isn’t an issue for you and you can take or leave the grip texture. What does that leave? The only thing I know of is you can make the grip bigger. I’ve always thought the problem with the Glock grip is it was already too big???
 
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#2 ·
It's true that the Gen 4 mags will fit in a Gen 3, but the Gen 3 mags will only fit in the Gen 4 if the mag release button is on the left side of the pistol.

Based on all of the hyperbole, I set out to compare the two, just like you. I have small hands, so I was hoping that the Gen 4 had a reduced length of pull, so I could get a better purchase on the trigger. It just ain't so. The Gen 4 has absolutely no selling points above the Gen 3. I can't say anything about the dual recoil spring system, because I haven't shot them.

I completely agree with your summary. I can shoot Glocks well enough, not perfectly, but I can make 'em work. It would've been nice if the Gen 4 had accommodated smaller hands. In my mind, that's where the market share lies. There are more people with small hands, then there are with large ones.

If an average hand size was made, including male and female, I believe that it would be significantly smaller than the one-size-fits-all Glock handle.
 
#3 ·
It's true that the Gen 4 mags will fit in a Gen 3, but the Gen 3 mags will only fit in the Gen 4 if the mag release button is on the left side of the pistol....
Hmmm, I thought I looked at that yesterday to see if the gen 4 mags had 'mirror' cuts to accommodate the switchable mag release and I'm remembering they only had the one cut on the side and the front cut that the gen 3 and earlier mags don't have.

Thanks for the heads up on that; I'll confirm that today and correct my OP accordingly.

...Based on all of the hyperbole, I set out to compare the two, just like you. I have small hands, so I was hoping that the Gen 4 had a reduced length of pull, so I could get a better purchase on the trigger. It just ain't so. The Gen 4 has absolutely no selling points above the Gen 3. I can't say anything about the dual recoil spring system, because I haven't shot them.....In my mind, that's where the market share lies. There are more people with small hands, then there are with large ones.....If an average hand size was made, including male and female, I believe that it would be significantly smaller than the one-size-fits-all Glock handle.
Exactly how I see it too. The thing is, all the rhetoric about how the back straps have solved the 'fit' problem is very misleading. As you and I both found - they do not address the small hand issue at all. I wonder how many people, especially women, will buy a gen 4 thinking they're getting a gun that can be adjusted to fit their smaller hands?

I wasn't even looking for a Glock with a smaller grip - I'm one of those strange guys that like the Glock grip, well, maybe except for the angle.
 
#4 ·
A $100 difference? Your getting ripped off. It's a $20-30 difference at most local shops and you get a 3rd mag. Some of the chain stores are ridiculous.
The feel of the grip is going to be a personal thing but I do notice a difference between them. Not a huge difference but definately noticeable.
As for the dual spring, I can't say I could tell a difference shooting 9mm. Shooting a Gen 3 & Gen 4 G22 side by side, I can. It seems to take a bit of the sharpness off the recoil impulse to me.
My favorite features of the Gen 4 are the new mag release and the subdued RTF finish. When the price of an extra mag are factored in, they are basically even. A $100 more? I'd walk away too.

I'm not sure how to address the small hand thing. My oldest daughter has tiny hands and prefers the feel of the M&P compacts but has no issues using a G19. Eat at McDonalds? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu_bE7g2wqM&feature=related
 
#7 ·
A $100 difference? Your getting ripped off. It's a $20-30 difference at most local shops and you get a 3rd mag. Some of the chain stores are ridiculous.
The feel of the grip is going to be a personal thing but I do notice a difference between them. Not a huge difference but definately noticeable.
As for the dual spring, I can't say I could tell a difference shooting 9mm. Shooting a Gen 3 & Gen 4 G22 side by side, I can. It seems to take a bit of the sharpness off the recoil impulse to me.
My favorite features of the Gen 4 are the new mag release and the subdued RTF finish. When the price of an extra mag are factored in, they are basically even. A $100 more? I'd walk away too.
Well, the price at two different stores, one a chain thing and the other a privately owned gunstore that usually has 'better' prices, had the gen 4s at $569 and $565 respectively. I'm going on memory here but I believe the gen 3s are going for about $469 around here.

I could not feel nor see any difference in a gen 3 and gen 4 grip. I do plan to look at the mag issue again and I'll measure the grips while I'm at it. I don't believe there is any difference at all - I know there isn't in trigger reach.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the write-up guys, it comforms my impressions. Our department had several Gen 4's to try. The brass and several of the firearms instructors shot them on the range. And bless their little hearts, they called in several of the officers the have the lowest qualification scores and let them shoot the course with the gen 3's and gen 4's back to back. The scores were 1-5 % higher for most of the lower shooters with the gen 4's, although 2 shot lower. As for precived recoil, most thought that if there was only a difference it was only slightly different in the weak hand part of the course. I had fired a friends earlier, only a mag full at 15 yards, and really could not tell any difference.
 
#6 ·
I have a Gen4 G17 (I prefer the texture of the Gen4 over that of my Gen3 G19), I like it, even though I am not really a Glockenspiel kinda guy. Anyway, the first time I had it out, I had multiple misfeeds, called Glock and received the replacement recoil spring set-up, took care of the problem, but I went a head and did the Gen3 conversion to it, I'm pleased with it.
 
#8 ·
Glock's with the reversible magazine release set up on the right side can only use the generation 4 magazines, the ones with the mag release cut on the right side of the magazine. I wanted to set up my Gen4 with the mag catch on the right, but I didn't want to give up the magazine compatibility.
 
#9 ·
As for the recoil comment, I read this which makes perfect sense to me:

There are dual rate spring assemblies sold aftermarket for various guns like the Ber 92 that do reduce PERCEIVED recoil. It's because the effect of multiple springs is to give variable spring rate. This is because initially, only one spring resists movement then the second one kicks in at a point farther back. The slide moves quickly at fire (little spring resistance) which acts as a recoil absorber for the initial firing pulse. The resistance increases as the slide goes farther back, stopping it short of frame inpact. The total recoil energy is the same, but the initial pulse is less which most people feel as a softer recoil.
Of course the subcompact Gen3's already have the double recoil spring anyway (eg G26), so that's one less feature upgrade.

I have heard that the Gen 4's have a different (flatter, less oily) finish on the slide. Is this true? Because I really like the slightly oily finish of the Gen3 and I think this helps in rust prevention.

Personally I see the larger mag release button as a con...I don't have any trouble hitting the Gen3 button so making it larger would only make it easier for the button to be accidentally depressed by a holster when sitting down causing the magazine to clatter out onto the floor.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I have heard that the Gen 4's have a different (flatter, less oily) finish on the slide. Is this true? Because I really like the slightly oily finish of the Gen3 and I think this helps in rust prevention.

Personally I see the larger mag release button as a con...I don't have any trouble hitting the Gen3 button so making it larger would only make it easier for the button to be accidentally depressed ...........
Looks the same as the finish on my Gen3, and the magazine release isn't any easier to accidentally depress than the Gen3, at least in my experience with both.
 
#12 ·
As someone who loves Glock, I have been saying the same thing for months on the Gen 4's. Plain and simple it was a half assed attempt at trying to add features that everyone else has had for a few years now. In doing so, they are not as reliable. Almost every single person I know that has the gen 4 gets the recoil spring sent out. Thank you for the honest assessment Tangle!
 
#14 ·
Thanks Hawk, I'm carrying my G17 RTF2 right now - I love Glocks too - there's so much to like. But I agree exactly with what you said about the gen 4. I was not aware of the recoil spring issue. I know Glock had some real issues with the G22 gen 4 and I think the springs had something to do with that too.

I can understand the pressure to deal with the grip issue, but to me they compromised a time tested, trusted design. I guess that doesn't mean the gen 4s won't prove themselves, but they're gonna have to in order to claim the reputation of the pre gen 4s. BTW, hawk check your PM.
 
#13 ·
I find the gen 4 grip with no backstrap significantly more comfortable then the gen 3 grip. Perhaps it's all in my head but it was enough to make me buy a G23 gen 4 for my home defense/I need more firepower CCW where as I never would have considered it before because I hated the grip. I do notice less recoil but the 40 is still every bit as snappy. It just seems to be a slightly less sharp snap.
 
#15 ·
I am not trying to bash Glocks because I don't have dog in this one. I don't much like Gen 1, 2, 3 or 4 version of Glock. They are just not my cup of tea.

My only observation is this. Glock apparently got it right when they started, built a good reliable gun and marketed them well. They have seemed to rest on that fact and been far from innovative since thier original designs. The rest of the gun makers have had to sort of "catch up" to Glock and have been trying to do so with innovative designs in their pistols. Now that Glock is feeling the competition they are having to look at design changes and may feel some pain with these changes not being the latest and greatest of what is on the market.
 
#17 ·
I just ordered a Glock 19 Gen 4. I used the LEO Discount Program so the Gen4 and the Gen3 were the same price. I figure if I don't like the Gen4 I can easily do a straight trade for a Gen3.

I actually really like the new grip texture.
 
#18 ·
I just ordered a Glock 19 Gen 4....I actually really like the new grip texture.
Me too. I already have a RTF2 and really like that too. I understand it's pretty hard on clothes, but I haven't seen any issues with it so far. As I understand it, the gen 4 texture was in response from owners claiming the RTF2 was too aggressive. Kinda like the three bears I guess - this one's not enough, this one's too much, but this one is just right.
 
#19 ·
Interesting posts.

The only thing that I don't like about Glock, is that it's hard for me to reach the trigger. The Gen 4 didn't solve that. I bought a 2nd Gen 3 instead.

Regarding the recoil spring; perhaps it doesn't actually reduce felt recoil, but reduces muzzle flip, which in turn people perceive to be less recoil?

I dunno :dunno: I'm not an engineer, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn...
 
#20 ·
I've also heard that the original Gen4 spring was very heavy and meant to be used with Duty / SD Ammo. 03 Spring System I believe?

People were complaining because the Gen4s were malfunctioning on cheap range ammo.

Thats why they have the two different springs now. I believe all the new guns are shipping with the lighter spring. 04 Spring System.
 
#23 ·
I was going to mention that using cheap range ammo is not an acceptable excuse. If I were to post issues about a 1911 on this forum and gave that same excuse, all the Glock fan's would be saying that 1911's are not reliable.

My Gen 2's, and 3's never had an issue with WWB..... Just sayin......
 
#24 ·
I'd have to disagree with Tangle's opinion. True, most of the Gen 4 changes are more cosmetic than functional, but these are in response to customer concerns and complaints.

The no-backstrap Gen 4 four is not the size of a comparable Gen 3; it's comparable to the SF-sized grips. I can most definitely tell the difference between a Gen 3 G22 and the Gen 4 sans additional backstraps. To me, it feels better than the SF versions.

The grip texture was changed in answer to many comments that it was slippery when "bloody," although I don't know how many have actually had Glocks slip from their bloody hands.

The "reversible" mag release should satisfy the lefties to a better extent. If you're a rightie, it's a non-issue. Did it need to be enlarged? I don't think so, but I suppose so do.

Functionally, the only real change is the addition of the dual recoil spring, which has worked out fine in the older models that utilized it (like my G30). Whether it softens recoil of the already soft-shooting Glock is a matter of personal opinion.

As in any product, changes cost money, and it has to be made up for somewhere. I haven't seen a $110 jump in prices between the two Generations (unless the store was trying to unload the Gen 3s), so I'd question the prices of that particular business.

And as to the interchangability of mags? Well, few of the parts of a '77 Ford will fit a 2011 model. That's the way things work as time goes by. I suppose if you're good with a Dremal you could adapt a Gen 3 mag to fit the Gen 4, but the cost of mags is so irrelevant in the overall cost of firearms.
 
#28 ·
...but these are in response to customer concerns and complaints.
I said that very thing - to wit, and I quote, "...As I understand it, the gen 4 texture was in response from owners claiming the RTF2 was too aggressive...."

...The no-backstrap Gen 4 four is not the size of a comparable Gen 3; it's comparable to the SF-sized grips. I can most definitely tell the difference between a Gen 3 G22 and the Gen 4 sans additional backstraps. To me, it feels better than the SF versions.
I'm gonna go measure the Gen 4, I couldn't tell a difference in the gen 3 and gen 4, but I am curious enough to run to a nearby gun store and measure the gen 4 grip - either today, or more likely tomorrow.

....The grip texture was changed in answer to many comments that it was slippery when "bloody," although I don't know how many have actually had Glocks slip from their bloody hands....
That's my understanding as well. That resulted in the RTF2, which apparently was abrasive on clothes, so Glock went with a less agressive texture on the gen 4s.

....And as to the interchangability of mags?.....but the cost of mags is so irrelevant in the overall cost of firearms.
I disagree. The cost of the gun is $500. The cost for the four mags I'd have to buy to have the seven (or eight) I already have for the gen 3's would cost near $100 or 20% of the cost of the gun.

It may not be relevant, not because of the cost, but because we have learned that the gen 3's will fit the gen 4's if the mag release isn't reversed.
 
#25 ·
I've handled the G30 and the G30SF. I could tell a difference, but I cannot tell the same difference between the Gen 3 and 4.

I guess that the different dynamics in a person's hand may be significant. Some may have longer fingers than others, while having a smaller palm. There are so many different dynamics. Rollo definitely felt a difference; but I didn't.

As a side note, the difference in price that I saw was only ten dollars, but that was at the same store. Tangle's prices come from two different stores, hence the large discrepancy.
 
#26 ·
Over the years I've owned three different Glocks myself. My shooting was always rather indifferent with them and when I really cracked down and did some serious range time and training I developed tendonitis in my right thumb from it. Oddly enough some of the other Glock shooters I was training with were gobbling Motrins like they were M&M's at the class I was attending. Or perhaps it's not so strange that they were doing that after all...

I'll admit that perhaps you can freeze a Glock in a solid block of mud, chisel it off and it'll shoot but that seems to be a pretty extreme way to carry concealed.
 
#27 ·
While I couldn't feel any real difference between the Standard and SF grips, I could definitely feel it in the Gen 4 between no backstrap versus either additional. My guess is it's very much an individual feeling. But I do appreciate that the idea makes the grip more adaptable to more hands.

No painful thumb for me, at least not yet.
 
#31 ·
Just went to the range with a gen4 19 a couple of days ago, with a 03 spring, zero malfunctions with cheap ammo. About 250-300 rds between RWS 124gr, Winchester NATO, and Winchester PDX +P. That included 3 g4 mags, 5 g3 mags, and a 12$ 33rd mag from Botach. I have always disliked Glocks before this gun, I hate the original mag release and the g4 version feels so much more natural. I took a friends G30 with me, decent gun but i wouldnt consider getting a g3. As far as the g4 grip goes, it feels a lot better to me. For a comparison i have a 1911 with Davidsons Warthog grips and those are atleast as rough as the g4 grip. I honestly didnt feel much of a difference between his G30 and my G19 g4, but when i moved over to my 1911 it felt tiny by comparison.
 
#32 ·
I briefly handled a Gen 4 G19, and it seemed to be narrower at one particular point on the frame. I can reach a Glock trigger OK, but with no extra to spare. I really dislike the overall fullness and blockiness of pre-Gen 4 Glocks, and the Gen 4 seems to at least partially address that part, even if the 2-dimensional LOP from backstrap to trigger face is the same.

I will have to go back and handle one again, when I have more time, to compare the generations' dimensional differences. Of course, buying that new SIG P229R E2 last month certainly means I won't be buying any more pistols outright for quite a while.
 
#33 ·
...I will have to go back and handle one again, when I have more time, to compare the generations' dimensional differences...
Yeah, I need to do that too. I intented to do that today, but I went tree climbing instead and now it's getting close to Super Bowl time and I'm not going anywhere.

...Of course, buying that new SIG P229R E2 last month certainly means I won't be buying any more pistols outright for quite a while.
Again, yeah me too. How about that, we're both broke from buying the same gun the same month, and I'll just venture a guess, I bet you paid too much for it too. :rofl:
 
#34 ·
I have a Gen2 G23 and there is a distinct difference for me in the two grips. I don't have a problem with the trigger reach, but have to adjust my grip to release the mag. The Gen4 G22/3 fixed that for me. Maybe it's just a goldilocks thing for me, but there is a difference.
 
#35 ·
I carried a G19 Gen 3 for about 6 or 7 months, thought about grabbing a gen 4 but didn't really see an improvement. I used to believe that the Glock was the pistol for me, but since shooting other similar sized pistols I realize that while Glock is a fantastic gun, there are other guns that fit my hand much better and are of just about the same reliability as a Glock. Don't foresee myself purchasing another Glock anytime soon.
 
#36 ·
Tangle, thanks for the very informative and well written article on the Gen4's. I really appreciate it. I have carried a Gen3 Glock 23 for years. I have a love/hate relationship with the gun. I love that it has never given me a single problem of any kind, that it always works and that it is easy to carry. I hate that the darn grip just doesn't fit my hand worth a darn. I have learned to adapt to the grip and I can shoot very well with it but, it still after more than 5 years carrying it, isn't second nature.

This just really re-enforces my desire to transition to the Ruger SR 9/40 line as they do really fit my hands much, much better. I will keep my G23, but in the near future I think there will be a Ruger on my hip.

Thanks again.
 
#37 ·
I think the texture and mag release are notable improvements over the standard gen3. The dual spring setup was a boon to the .40s, but had less than stellar results in the 9mm guns, although it appears guns with the 02 and 021 springs are running much better. Also of note is that the slightly changed trigger geometry has resulted in a heavier pull on gen 4s with the stock disconnector. It's usually in the neighborhood of a pound heavier than a gen3, and while not too detrimental to trigger control, it is definitely noticeable.

What angers me is that glock essentially used the consumer as the gen4 beta tester. There have already been 3 or 4 spring setups and 2 different slides for the 9mm gen4s. My g17 gen4 is my duty pistol, and while it has an up to date spring, it doesnt have the newest slide with the counterbored recess for the RSA. The counterbored slides appear to be the design glock will move forward with for gen4 production, so what happens when I need a new RSA? Will they continue producing the 021 RSA with the small sleeve at the end of the guide rod, or will I be SOL?
 
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