my thoughts on Kahr handguns
This is a discussion on my thoughts on Kahr handguns within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've had a CW9 for well over a year now and just a few weeks back picked up a PM40. I've got several hundred rounds ...
February 22nd, 2011 11:03 AM
I've had a CW9 for well over a year now and just a few weeks back picked up a PM40. I've got several hundred rounds DR with the 9, and only two hundred fifty through the .40, but so far IMO the Kahr pistol is one of the better single stack CC pistols on the market. Like a couple of the others have stated; I'll never offer either or any of um up for trade or sale. I have several different types of autos and a handful of revolvers, but the Kahr lineup and more so the PM model of Kahr pistols is a CC option worth checking out IMO. Some have had bad luck with there's but (fingers crossed) so far mine have run perfectly, and I have no regrets on either purchase. For CC purposes I prefer my Kahr PM40 over my Glock 36,26,23. IMO the Glocks are more rugged and maybe a tad less finicky regarding ammo, but the Gold dots run flawlessly in both the Kahr and the Glock so all is good as far as I'm concerned.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson
February 22nd, 2011 11:22 AM
It's always dangerous to post a contrarian experience on a "I love ____ thread," so I'll put on my Nomex underwear...
As some of you know, I've owned three different Kahr pistols - one P9 (an early one) and two PM9s (one was an early one, one was a newer version with the latest mods). All of them had various issues.
The Kahr design makes them very unforgiving. The feed ramp is off set to the left, to make room for the trigger bar on the right side of the thin frame. The feed ramp is steep, and the top round in the mag is at a steeper upward angle than the rounds below it. This all combines to make the Kahr prone to nose-down jams when using JHPs in certain situations - such as doing a tap-rack drill, or if you try to slingshot the slide (which is why Kahr specifies the use of the slide stop to chamber the first round). If that top round in the mag gets out of position, it noses down...and you've got trouble.
Everything is indeed a trade-off. I am a fan of consistency in training, and I've always trained to reload using the overhand method. MY Kahrs were not reliable loading this way, among other issues, so I sold them.
Regarding the PM9 - Kahr informed me that the recoil spring needs to be changed every 1000 rounds. This info was nowhere in the user manual (yes, I did read it). So, unless they have updated the spring or their manual, those of you who have the PM9 may wish to get a spare recoil spring - use one for carry, and one for practice. Mine had failure to return to battery issues at about 1200 rounds, IIRC. This was mostly with plain 9mm ammo, not much +P. This same gun also had barrel and slide peening, and the slide back came loose. Hardly operator error.
Kahr does not offer a lifetime warranty anymore - something to consider when you plunk a bunch of money down on a pistol. In my experience, their customer service is iffy at best.
My personal experience, FWIW. I'm looking for a single stack .45...you can bet it won't be a Kahr.
The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
Usual carry - Ruger SP101 .357 DAO snub + LCR .38
February 22nd, 2011 11:30 AM
Yes, what I'm telling you is just that I suppose. Looking at the design, quality and reputation of the gun would weigh a little more than first impression of what is more than likely a fouled range rental. Would your experience cause me to investigate more? Of course it would. Would it cause me to bad mouth an entire brand? No.
Originally Posted by Dsully
Why are you so quick to write off that it could be the primer? Because your own gun fired the same round? Thats a bit silly. Cheap range ammo does in fact have a hard primer from time to time. Some brands are notorious for hard primers. Its not unusual that if you get one hard primer you will have several out of the same lot. I've had light strikes in my Glocks, Sigs, Springfields, S&W, Berettas and Kahrs. Its just a fact using range grade ammo. If it was a consistent problem using premium ammo, I'd be concerned. The fact that your combat grade pistol fired the round on a second strike doesn't really mean squat, other than your HK fired a second strike hard primer. If the Kahr had several light strikes on different ammo, it would lead me to believe the channel was fouled or the striker assembly was worn somewhere along the mechanism. But, it had just two. That points to a hard primer.
Furthermore, its a bit silly to make a hypothesis on a guns reliability based on one outing with a rental gun. If you just didn't like the ergonomics, recoil something subjective like that, fine. But, like I pointed out before, we all know that range guns are over used and abused. Also, using what is admittedly not an "every mans" type of pistol for the first time is not the best way to evaluate reliability.
Anyway, I wasnt pointing in anyones direction in particular. Just answering questions and providing my thoughts on the given topic.
February 22nd, 2011 11:58 AM
Just my opinion but if you are not experienced with handguns and all the nuances of cleaning them then Kahr's are probably not a handgun you should own. If you don't clean them, lube them, load the magazines and read the instructions thoroughly you will probably have problems with them. I had problems with my first one (MK9) and after learning these things I have not had one problem with my second one (P380).
February 22nd, 2011 12:21 PM
That's almost amazing. I have a PM9 that I've fired close to 800 times, and every single time, no matter what the ammo - from Speer Gold Dot to Remington UMC and a bunch of other junk in between -- that gun has never one time failed to off. It's every bit as reliable as my HK .45 and my S&W Sigma 9mm. And say what you will about the Sigma -- yes, it is S&W's low end product, kind of like a chevy compared to a buick or a cadillac -- but that Sigma has never failed once either, after about 1600 rounds.
Originally Posted by Dsully
Man I love to shoot guns.
I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
1 Thess. 5:16-18
February 22nd, 2011 12:56 PM
Ok, well I wasn't really wanting my post to go in the direction that it did but whatever. We see things different and that's fine. I personally wouldn't spend more money to see if something will work after the experience I had with Kahr. I'm one person with this view, I guess, and that will not hurt Kahr's sales in anyway. For firearms that I carry, I hold to a higher standard then a safe queen or a range gun. Especially one that should have already been through the break in stage. That's all. If you say you weren't pointing fingers then cool. I apparently took it the wrong way.
February 22nd, 2011 02:21 PM
I have an MK9...I love this little gun. It is most definitely my BUG....but it is NOT a great range gun. After a couple of mags, it becomes a pain to shoot. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.
- know the difference
is a fancy name for crappy fighter
You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know
February 22nd, 2011 09:51 PM
Great for deep carry scinaros... more of a Bu than a every day carry IMO
February 22nd, 2011 10:23 PM
1) Unless you get lucky, every single shooter pulled off the rental shelf will be filthy, unlubricated, abused and poorly cared for. Experienced a few rental Glocks that have been pretty fussy.
2) The ammo purchased to shoot rentals (required at most/all ranges) will be the cheapest, filthiest shooting stuff they've got.
3) Kahrs are slim, precision carry pistols - not combat duty style weaponry you can drag through the desert/jungle/woods/battlefield for 6 months at a time. Nor will they perform well after being rented out 20 times, beat to hell and left caked with hardened residue and a slurry of ammo tar and axle grease. But if you want to carry ariound a 3 1/2 lb 1911 at the company picnic, that's cool...
February 22nd, 2011 10:30 PM
I'm almost to the point that I can't stand to read internet forums about guns I'm amazed by how illogical some folks can be and how others will repeat things they hear without any independent verification. I love it when someone tries a gun a single times has two FTF's and declares the brand un-reliable and that they'll never trust their life to a Kahr. Don't mean to be disrespectful but that just doesn't make any sense, even just for an opinion.
There are a few guns out there that you can expect to be perfect and reliable right out of the box. Glocks are at the top of that list. Next on the list are the larger service guns designed for, and used by military and LEO's like SIG's, H&K, etc. but even those can have problems sometimes.
The internet mantra is that a Ruger SP101 is the epitomey of reliability and ruggedness but the one I bought messed up and locked up after the 2nd range trip but I didn't declare rugers unreliable and that I'd never trust my life to it. Frankly that would be ignorant. No, I sent it in and got if fixed which is something you have to do with anything that's manufactured becasue no one is able to make things without the occassional defect. PERIOD.
Getting back to Kahr's, they meet some of the challenges of concealed carry in a very progressive way. They're designed to fill a niche market and they are probably one of the most advanced designs for that particular purpose. They're thin and flatter than most to aide in concealability, they're DAO w/no external safety becasue they're a dedicated defensive weapon. they're single stack to aide in concealability and to meet the needs of 99% of all self defense shootings. They also happen to have about the smoothest DAO trigger on the market, great sights, and they're VERY reliable.
The mfg says to allow for a 200 round break in. I've heard guys say that no gun should need one. I think that's bull. I have 4 Kahr's and had a FTF or FTE with 2 of them in the first mag or two and after that they never hiccupped again, no matter what I fed them. My P9 and K9 were perfect from day one and are the most accurate guns I have.
I have very small hands and simply can't reach the trigger comfortably on anything doublestack and even many single stacks, so the Kahrs are perfect for me.
Some say the K9 is heavy for it's size; interestingly enough its almost the same as a compact 3" 1911 in .45 acp but it carry's better and the average shooter can shoot it a LOT better.
I could go on but in my opinion, there's not a better civilian concealed carry gun out there.
If I can find any negatives at all it would be that they're expensive but they've worked on that with the CW series and that the checkering on the polymer versions can be rough on the hands for extended range sessions.
The MK9 is very very enjoyable to shoot in 9mm and is super accurate but is one of the most concealable guns I've ever seen. I consider it to be the "j frame" of semi-automatics but with 2 more rounds of 9mm vs .38.
the P380 is (in my opinion) the ultimate dedicated pocket gun. It's the perfect blend of capacity, weight, shootability, etc. and yet it has no external controls, no mag disconnect, the ultimate DAO trigger and outstanding sights.
They aren't as relable out of the box as a Glock and the PM9's had some challenges early on but when you take the time to give them a trip home they come back in good shape.
Other's will object to Justin Moon's connection to his father's church but I'm not too concerned about that.
So sorry to weigh in heavy on the side of Kahr but I think they're an outstanding value for CCW.
February 22nd, 2011 10:44 PM
Thin, reliable, accurate, lightweight, simple, a good trigger, good sights and plenty of available holsters. What's not to like? They aren't perfect, but they're close.
I carry a P9. I'm also very fond of my K9 and T9, very solid guns. I also enjoy a TP9 which is perhaps my favorite Kahr. I did sell my P45 and TP45 as I found I didn't care as much for the larger caliber guns, probably due to general aging issues and a bad shoulder in particular.
February 22nd, 2011 11:03 PM
I rotate these two and can't say I perfer one over the other...both have their different merits...but both are 100%.
Kobra Carry | HK
P7M8, P2000sk, P30s | Sig
P238, P239SAS, 1911 C3, P232, P938 | Colt
Defender, Mustang Pocketlite, 1911 | Rohrbaugh
R9 | Kimber
Covert Ultra II | Browning
HP, Buckmark 22LR(suppressed| Walter
PPK(1966) | Kahr
PM9 Black Rose |
February 23rd, 2011 01:48 AM
The Kahr PM9 is my favorite EDC. I love it.
February 23rd, 2011 07:38 AM
You obviously don't know the definition of the word "opinion" but that's ok. You have over 1000 posts so you must have a wealth of knowledge and follow instructions. Some people need to read past my original post.
February 23rd, 2011 04:56 PM
My K9 has been awesome. A tad heavy for its purpose but I like steel. Great gun.
"Some men, you just can't reach"
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