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1911 Resurgence & Premise [Long]

8K views 72 replies 34 participants last post by  azchevy 
#1 ·
Posted here and elsewhere

Question: Does anyone have, or know where to find, a comparison of 1911 platform (makers, frame sizes, barrel lengths combined) sales vs ALL other (single action, double action, safe action, etc. combined) semi auto platform sales over the near term (i.e., last 3-4-5 years)?

Premise: “Back in the day" the 1911 platform (hereafter termed 1911) was THE personal combat sidearm. I am still a disciple of Jeff Cooper. That being said, is the 1911 the “best” personal combat sidearm?

So, what is the definition of the “best personal combat sidearm”? I don’t know. Maybe a combination of power, ergonomics, ease of manual of arms, controllability, availability of the weapon and accessories, etc. etc.

Here’s my hypothesis: after perhaps 30 – 40 years, we have yet to find a *vastly* superior fighting weapon for the average person. Has the Glock outsold? Perhaps. Has it alone outsold ALL 1911 iterations? I can’t say. Is it, or any other platform, the best for the *average person*? I can’t answer the question of what constitutes “the average person,” thus my question about sales.

My answer: 1911 remains the best …

-jb
 
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#49 ·
and the more I research the more I see that glock has been copied a lot after the patents expired , namely the polymer usage and the striker trigger design..... I also discovered that i can purchase every aftermarket part including frames and slides to build an aftermarket glock without buying any glock parts. Learn something new every day.
 
#51 ·
looks like CCF and Lone wolf make frames and slides, not sure about small parts but looks like I can do an entire trigger and get an aftermarket pin kit too, striker plate, recoil springs and guide rods, barrels, sights.... yeah an entire glock of non glock parts, I may have a new project
 
#54 ·
The attachment to the 1911 is mainly emotional. I'll admit I think a properly done 1911 is one of the most aesthetically pleasing firearms ever. The triggers can be great, the ergos are good, and they can be very accurate. Despite that, when it really comes down to it, for anyone seriously dedicated to running a 1911 as their main defensive or duty gun, you have to be devoted to the platform. Generally you're going to start off with at least $1000 in a gun that might or might not be reliable. If it's not reliable you have to send it back to the manufacturer or a knowledgeable smith to make it run right. Then you have to find what mags and ammo work with it. After that, you must know the replacement intervals for all the parts, then you have to know which if those parts requires fitting/tuning and have the ability to do that fitting and tuning. You're probably going to want another 1911 for a spare or maybe as a more concealable gun (if you want a small 1911, get ready for more issues). The 1911 essentially forces you to become you're own armorer to a degree. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but keeping 1911s up and running when you shoot quite a bit is more taxing than other pistols.

The truth is, after all the time and money someone who truly wishes to be proficient devotes to a 1911, they probably would've been a better shooter by getting a glock, m&p, or HK, buying some mags and a holster and replacing the sights, then buying a few cases of ammo and taking some training classes. The time and money invested would've been the same or less, and they would have an easier to maintain gun to boot.

A lot of people have mentioned they shoot better with a 1911. The best way I've heard that particular phenomenon explained is that the vast majority of shooters (myself included) don't really shoot better with a 1911, they suck less. The lightweight, short-travel trigger helps minimize the sight movement caused by improper trigger control. I used to think the 1911 was the greatest thing since sliced bread, then I got much better at executing a proper trigger press and started shooting my M&Ps and now glocks just as well.
 
#56 ·
Really I would have to respectfully disagree with you on many of your points.
I can really only speak for factory Colt since I presently do not own any clones. The vast majority of Colt 1911s do function perfectly right out of the box & they DO function fine with the Colt factory mags.
So...if a shooter is OK with the box-stock Colt then really nothing else is needed. I DO grant you the fact that folks do love to customize the stock Colt...some folks just for the heckovit & some because they want it more specifically tailored to their wants and needs. The majority of factory Colt 1911s will also easily handle hollow-point ammo as well as hardball.
Regarding "replacement intervals" for "parts" really it's only the recoil spring that should be periodically refreshed. Of Course more often with the chopped versions than the full size 1911.
But, note that now there are Chrome Silicon recoil springs that can go 50,000 recoil cycles without failing.
I own an old Colt built in 1918 that I still shoot and except for the recoil spring and the fact that I switched out the long trigger for a vintage short trigger (all of my 1911s sport short triggers) it is still running just fine on all of its original parts including the original extractor.
I would say that most folks become 1911 armorers more because they want to rather than because they really need to.
It is just a fun gun to customize.
Where many 1911 pistols run into "function related problems" is by being home-smithed with custom mods that are just not correctly fit & also due to the fact that there are tons of cheapo magazines floating around out there that were/are just awful.
Some even made in China with all of the correct factory Colt markings.
One other issue regarding "feed & function" with the 1911 is an improperly tuned & tensioned extractor.
But, again once a high quality extractor is properly fit, tuned, and tensioned it will go multitudes of thousands of rounds without any issues whatsoever.
As far as general cleaning & maintenance is concerned it is a real breeze to totally disassemble the 1911 & quickly pop it back together again.

Other function related issues occured in amateur modified pistols when folks would buy a Nowlin Hammer & an Ed Brown Sear & a WILSON thumb safety...etc. and that resulted in tolerance stacking issues due to different aftermarket parts manufacturers using slightly varying specs.
That little problem has now been pretty much corrected now that some truly fine high quality parts suppliers now have fit hammer and sear sets & one maker will fabricate all of the related internal parts.
And there are just some incredible "drop in" barrel makers out there though I've never actually seen a factory Colt barrel in .45ACP that was shot out.
 
#59 ·
All of mine have "worked" right out of the box & I've owned many. Even my old vintage radically chopped Detonics functioned perfectly.

Mine always run perfectly until I start "fixing" them. :rofl:

Actually I consider working on them to have been part of a truly rewarding learning process.

I love the idea of knowing the firearm that I carry inside out, upside-down and forward & backward & I still have stuff to learn.
 
#60 ·
If I was going to war, or needed to be responsible in equiping a complete military going to war or law enforcement, I would choose a glock.

No need to worry about "tuning" and the skills that go along with it, I would also get more bang for my buck and a weapon interface that requires less training/skill to use.

It is a drop in "lego" system that anyone can work on with a point and shoot interface that goes bang in the harshest of conditions and is dirt cheap to manufacture (ie purchase).

Look at law enforcement and that tells you what is the overall prefered platform when everything is taken into account. Each agency can purchase whatever they want and a huge majority still choose glock after all these years.

There is no doubt that the 1911 does some things better than most, if not all, but when looking at an overall criteria, it doesn't match up when the pistol is needed for the masses.
 
#61 ·
In short...does anybody really NEED upgraded beautifully machine turned grip screw bushings & fancy dandy Stainless Torx grip screws
..of course not but, we are Americans :usflag: and we have a real need to waste our money on such things. :biggrin2:
 
#64 ·
"a Rock Island Tactical,"
They are good pistols. I've shot the "Rock" before without any hitches or malfs.

Personally I think every 1911 should ideally run & run & run for decades and smooth...just like a fine old SINGER sewing machine.
 
#66 ·
I'm no 1911 expert, so I like to listen to people who are. No offense to you, but when someone like Hilton Yam outlines service intervals and it doesn't jive with what you're saying, I'm gonna trust Mr. Yam. Mr. Yam also builds and maintains 1911s for members of his police department (of particular interest to me, as a police officer) and has stated that if he could start over they'd all be carrying M&P45s with apex DCAEKs.

Throw in quotes like this from people who know more about using a 1911 as a fighting pistol than just about anyone who has ever lived, and I'm gonna take note.

I don't want to come off like I hate the 1911, the only reason I don't own one is I've got more pressing needs that my gun money goes to. To me the gun is a means to an end, I want one that I can shoot well, is decently accurate, and most importantly, is as close to stone cold reliable as a man made object can be with minimal upkeep. Getting a gun with those traits allows me to concentrate my limited funds on buying up ammo and getting training that make me a better shooter. For me, for a multitude of reasons, the 1911 isn't that gun. Doesn't mean I won't pick up an Ed Brown or Springfield Pro if I come across a bunch of unexpected money.
 
#68 ·
Well, thanks for politely calling some of us liars.

As I said in an earlier post, you are entitled to carry what you like and that is fine by me. I only know what happens with my guns and I have no issues with them and they receive no special treatment. I just shoot them and clean them occasionally. As long as they continue to perform like this, I will continue use them. I will, without one whit of reservation, strap one on and go anywhere I choose without a thought as to whether or not it will run if I get into a SHTF situation. It is my handgun of choice and I am confident that I can live with that. If you are uncomfortable with the 1911, then by all means you should use another sidearm. I am not trying to change anyone's mind about the 1911 as there are plenty of folks already that hold them in pretty high esteem. Besides, if many more people decide they like them, I won't be able to afford them before too long.
 
#67 ·
I came oh so close to purchasing a full size RIA tactical last weekend. I was actually very impressed with the fit of the pistol.

I think any 1911 properly built can be reliable, although I do think they require more cleaning but is that really any different than a M4 compared to an AK47. I also believe they need more maintenance but I am seeing that this is a debated topic.

I believe the issue is that no matter what, you are going to have pistols that don't work, break etc.... With a 1911 you are going to have to have highly skilled gunsmiths who really know what they are doing. With a glock you pop some parts out, pop some in, it runs again and you call it a day. Nothing needs to be fitted or tuned.
 
#71 ·
There is no need to make it personal. The purpose of a forum is to present differing opinion and put point & counterpoint "out there" for (hopefully) intelligent debate and discussion.

Actually, I read through the posts on that link and I honestly don't know what specific "parts" they are referring to that need all of this constant replacement and maintenance. :confused:

Most aftermarket extractors can be problematic if they are not specially fit.
Truthfully I think that everybody out there that knows nothing about the 1911 extractor should just have a Millennium Extractor properly installed and be done with extraction related problems.

People also need to keep in mind that the 1911 (as originally designed) was intended to have a completely captive feed system.
Many aftermarket "super duper" magazines have veered away from that fact (with regard to their feed lip design specs) in order to supposedly increase feed reliability with hollow-point ammo.
Using those magazines can sometimes cause feed related problems.

With regard to "timing" I also believe that a properly set up 1911 does not really need an extended ejector at all...unless it's a compact 1911.
In a full size 1911 it's an answer to a problem that never existed. Again...my personal opinion on that & others (I'm sure) will disagree.

None of my pistols have highly tuned triggers or lightened trigger pulls and they have never been any sort of problem. But, they are crisp.
With regard to a Kimber...well, a Kimber is a Kimber & everybody on this forum already knows my thoughts on The MIMber so I'll not even get into that.
Certainly I could easily envision how somebody who has never put the "required" 500 "reliability rounds" through their MIMber and then shows up for any "run the gun hard" class would have huge function related problems with their clone with regard to feed reliability and possible broken parts.

Larry Vickers is....well...Larry Vickers and nothing is ever much good unless the Vicker God uses it personally.

I can really only speak for my guns and I have never busted a barrel link or lost a barrel lug or broke a sear or a hammer hook.
I have never had a plunger tube come loose and they never will if they are properly staked on. I HAVE heard of older Colt collet bushings breaking but, they're pretty much obsolete.

Unlike some other folks I do give a huge amout of credit to GLOCK for making a super reliable Energizer Bunny Pistol but, For Me Personally (AKA Me, Myself, & I) they ergonomically suck and that is all that that I "have" against them. If it was not for that fact I would be in love with them.
Why should I "learn to love" what I instinctively can't tolerate?

I should also add that there are many custom 1911 Smiths that are producing amazingly incredible 1911s that are cosmetically true works of precision machine-shop pistolcraft.

But, any custom gunsmith with a policy that states; "Here is your pistol...take it out and "run it hard" and then send it back to me for routine and periodic maintenance would not be my particular choice for building me a pistol. Again...just my personal opinion on that.
 
#72 ·
After reviewing this thread, I guess I am royally done. I own a Rock Island AND it is a compact. Inexpensive and short. I need to quit wearing it while I am on gun sites so it doesnt find out it isnt supposed to work right. Fortunately, it hasnt figured that out yet. LOL!!
 
#73 ·
I LOVE glocks, as a matter of fact I retired the 1911 to the safe, but I never had an issue with any 1911 I owned. However as has been said above, some people don't like polymer or don't like ergos and that is fine and as I said before, the 1911 has cemented it's place in US history. I say you own one of each :smile:
 
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