1911 Resurgence & Premise [Long] - Page 4

1911 Resurgence & Premise [Long]

This is a discussion on 1911 Resurgence & Premise [Long] within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jwarren Most of the Glock patents have expired, at 17yrs and 20yrs from 1987. The suit brought against Smith and Wesson was ...

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  1. #46
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwarren View Post
    Most of the Glock patents have expired, at 17yrs and 20yrs from 1987.

    The suit brought against Smith and Wesson was actually a trade dress action, or suit based on the looks of the Sigma rather than patent of the semi auto action.

    http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html.



    the patents which list Gaston Glock as inventor, i am sure I am missing some....

    PAT. NO. Title
    1 6,643,968 Pistol with a device for determining the number of shots
    2 6,478,202 Holster
    3 6,276,581 Holster for a firearm
    4 6,230,414 Rear sight for firearm
    5 5,485,695 Laser aiming device
    6 4,893,546 Automatic pistol
    7 4,825,744 Automatic pistol
    8 4,539,889 Automatic pistol with counteracting spring control mechanism
    9 4,475,757 Spade

    Numbers 6 and 7 have lifetime left.


  2. #47
    Member Array jwarren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html.



    the patents which list Gaston Glock as inventor, i am sure I am missing some....

    PAT. NO. Title
    1 6,643,968 Pistol with a device for determining the number of shots
    2 6,478,202 Holster
    3 6,276,581 Holster for a firearm
    4 6,230,414 Rear sight for firearm
    5 5,485,695 Laser aiming device
    6 4,893,546 Automatic pistol
    7 4,825,744 Automatic pistol
    8 4,539,889 Automatic pistol with counteracting spring control mechanism
    9 4,475,757 Spade

    Numbers 6 and 7 have lifetime left.
    The thread that you copied this info from is dated May of 2004. The patent office link does not even work any longer.

    The U S patents on Glocks have almost all expired.

    This is the thread that you copied from...including the link to the patent office.

    Glock's patents expire? - THR

  3. #48
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwarren View Post
    The thread that you copied this info from is dated May of 2004. The patent office link does not even work any longer.

    The U S patents on Glocks have almost all expired.

    This is the thread that you copied from...including the link to the patent office.

    Glock's patents expire? - THR

    Actually no, I just posted a bad link after doing my own research....

    US Patent Full-Text Database Boolean Search

    patents are good for 20 years

    United States Patent: 4893546

    So it was extended United States Patent: 4893546

    Again looks like they got extensions ;)

    United States Patent: 4893546

  4. #49
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    and the more I research the more I see that glock has been copied a lot after the patents expired , namely the polymer usage and the striker trigger design..... I also discovered that i can purchase every aftermarket part including frames and slides to build an aftermarket glock without buying any glock parts. Learn something new every day.

  5. #50
    Member Array jwarren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    and the more I research the more I see that glock has been copied a lot after the patents expired , namely the polymer usage and the striker trigger design..... I also discovered that i can purchase every aftermarket part including frames and slides to build an aftermarket glock without buying any glock parts. Learn something new every day.
    Yes, I see that also.

    I did not know about being able to buy the parts and assemble one for myself.

    I learned something too.

    Thanks

  6. #51
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    looks like CCF and Lone wolf make frames and slides, not sure about small parts but looks like I can do an entire trigger and get an aftermarket pin kit too, striker plate, recoil springs and guide rods, barrels, sights.... yeah an entire glock of non glock parts, I may have a new project

  7. #52
    Member Array jwarren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    looks like CCF and Lone wolf make frames and slides, not sure about small parts but looks like I can do an entire trigger and get an aftermarket pin kit too, striker plate, recoil springs and guide rods, barrels, sights.... yeah an entire glock of non glock parts, I may have a new project
    It would probably be fun to give it a try.

    Careful now, you will give me ideas that I really don't need. (according to my wife)

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Gaston Glock................Geeeeezzzz...........sounds like a Proctologist.

  9. #54
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    The attachment to the 1911 is mainly emotional. I'll admit I think a properly done 1911 is one of the most aesthetically pleasing firearms ever. The triggers can be great, the ergos are good, and they can be very accurate. Despite that, when it really comes down to it, for anyone seriously dedicated to running a 1911 as their main defensive or duty gun, you have to be devoted to the platform. Generally you're going to start off with at least $1000 in a gun that might or might not be reliable. If it's not reliable you have to send it back to the manufacturer or a knowledgeable smith to make it run right. Then you have to find what mags and ammo work with it. After that, you must know the replacement intervals for all the parts, then you have to know which if those parts requires fitting/tuning and have the ability to do that fitting and tuning. You're probably going to want another 1911 for a spare or maybe as a more concealable gun (if you want a small 1911, get ready for more issues). The 1911 essentially forces you to become you're own armorer to a degree. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but keeping 1911s up and running when you shoot quite a bit is more taxing than other pistols.

    The truth is, after all the time and money someone who truly wishes to be proficient devotes to a 1911, they probably would've been a better shooter by getting a glock, m&p, or HK, buying some mags and a holster and replacing the sights, then buying a few cases of ammo and taking some training classes. The time and money invested would've been the same or less, and they would have an easier to maintain gun to boot.

    A lot of people have mentioned they shoot better with a 1911. The best way I've heard that particular phenomenon explained is that the vast majority of shooters (myself included) don't really shoot better with a 1911, they suck less. The lightweight, short-travel trigger helps minimize the sight movement caused by improper trigger control. I used to think the 1911 was the greatest thing since sliced bread, then I got much better at executing a proper trigger press and started shooting my M&Ps and now glocks just as well.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    What can a 1911 type pistol do, that a Sig P220 cannot do?

    Answer: NOTHING

    .
    The 1911 can spawn endless forum hours troubleshooting. Only a 1911 needs a separate subforum for magazine issues, what works, how to make it work, what to do when it doesn't work.

    On the positive side, a 1911 feels better in many people's hands than other guns.

    The single action is easier for most people to shoot accurately than a SA/DA. (But Sig does have a P220 SAO model!)

    I carry a 1911, but I do definitely feel that the Sig is more reliable with a broad range of ammo and is much more trouble free. The P220 is reported just as accurate as a good 1911 when in equally good hands.

    As for "made in America", I think most Sigs are made in America. A significant percentage of 1911's are not made in America.

  11. #56
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    Really I would have to respectfully disagree with you on many of your points.
    I can really only speak for factory Colt since I presently do not own any clones. The vast majority of Colt 1911s do function perfectly right out of the box & they DO function fine with the Colt factory mags.
    So...if a shooter is OK with the box-stock Colt then really nothing else is needed. I DO grant you the fact that folks do love to customize the stock Colt...some folks just for the heckovit & some because they want it more specifically tailored to their wants and needs. The majority of factory Colt 1911s will also easily handle hollow-point ammo as well as hardball.
    Regarding "replacement intervals" for "parts" really it's only the recoil spring that should be periodically refreshed. Of Course more often with the chopped versions than the full size 1911.
    But, note that now there are Chrome Silicon recoil springs that can go 50,000 recoil cycles without failing.
    I own an old Colt built in 1918 that I still shoot and except for the recoil spring and the fact that I switched out the long trigger for a vintage short trigger (all of my 1911s sport short triggers) it is still running just fine on all of its original parts including the original extractor.
    I would say that most folks become 1911 armorers more because they want to rather than because they really need to.
    It is just a fun gun to customize.
    Where many 1911 pistols run into "function related problems" is by being home-smithed with custom mods that are just not correctly fit & also due to the fact that there are tons of cheapo magazines floating around out there that were/are just awful.
    Some even made in China with all of the correct factory Colt markings.
    One other issue regarding "feed & function" with the 1911 is an improperly tuned & tensioned extractor.
    But, again once a high quality extractor is properly fit, tuned, and tensioned it will go multitudes of thousands of rounds without any issues whatsoever.
    As far as general cleaning & maintenance is concerned it is a real breeze to totally disassemble the 1911 & quickly pop it back together again.

    Other function related issues occured in amateur modified pistols when folks would buy a Nowlin Hammer & an Ed Brown Sear & a WILSON thumb safety...etc. and that resulted in tolerance stacking issues due to different aftermarket parts manufacturers using slightly varying specs.
    That little problem has now been pretty much corrected now that some truly fine high quality parts suppliers now have fit hammer and sear sets & one maker will fabricate all of the related internal parts.
    And there are just some incredible "drop in" barrel makers out there though I've never actually seen a factory Colt barrel in .45ACP that was shot out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    The attachment to the 1911 is mainly emotional. I'll admit I think a properly done 1911 is one of the most aesthetically pleasing firearms ever. The triggers can be great, the ergos are good, and they can be very accurate. Despite that, when it really comes down to it, for anyone seriously dedicated to running a 1911 as their main defensive or duty gun, you have to be devoted to the platform. Generally you're going to start off with at least $1000 in a gun that might or might not be reliable. If it's not reliable you have to send it back to the manufacturer or a knowledgeable smith to make it run right. Then you have to find what mags and ammo work with it. After that, you must know the replacement intervals for all the parts, then you have to know which if those parts requires fitting/tuning and have the ability to do that fitting and tuning. You're probably going to want another 1911 for a spare or maybe as a more concealable gun (if you want a small 1911, get ready for more issues). The 1911 essentially forces you to become you're own armorer to a degree. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but keeping 1911s up and running when you shoot quite a bit is more taxing than other pistols.

    The truth is, after all the time and money someone who truly wishes to be proficient devotes to a 1911, they probably would've been a better shooter by getting a glock, m&p, or HK, buying some mags and a holster and replacing the sights, then buying a few cases of ammo and taking some training classes. The time and money invested would've been the same or less, and they would have an easier to maintain gun to boot.

    A lot of people have mentioned they shoot better with a 1911. The best way I've heard that particular phenomenon explained is that the vast majority of shooters (myself included) don't really shoot better with a 1911, they suck less. The lightweight, short-travel trigger helps minimize the sight movement caused by improper trigger control. I used to think the 1911 was the greatest thing since sliced bread, then I got much better at executing a proper trigger press and started shooting my M&Ps and now glocks just as well.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Really I would have to respectfully disagree with you on many of your points.
    I can really only speak for factory Colt since I presently do not own any clones. The vast majority of Colt 1911s do function perfectly right out of the box & they DO function fine with the Colt factory mags.
    So...if a shooter is OK with the box-stock Colt then really nothing else is needed. I DO grant you the fact that folks do love to customize the stock Colt...some folks just for the heckovit & some because they want it more specifically tailored to their wants and needs. The majority of factory Colt 1911s will also easily handle hollow-point ammo as well as hardball.
    Regarding "replacement intervals" for "parts" really it's only the recoil spring that should be periodically refreshed. Of Course more often with the chopped versions than the full size 1911.
    But, note that now there are Chrome Silicon recoil springs that can go 50,000 recoil cycles without failing.
    I own an old Colt built in 1918 that I still shoot and except for the recoil spring and the fact that I switched out the long trigger for a vintage short trigger (all of my 1911s sport short triggers) it is still running just fine on all of its original parts including the original extractor.
    I would say that most folks become 1911 armorers more because they want to rather than because they really need to.
    It is just a fun gun to customize.
    Where many 1911 pistols run into "function related problems" is by being home-smithed with custom mods that are just not correctly fit & also due to the fact that there are tons of cheapo magazines floating around out there that are just awful.
    Some even made in China with all of the correct factory Colt markings.
    One other issue regarding "feed & function" with the 1911 is an improperly tuned & tensioned extractor.
    But, again once a high quality extractor is properly fit, tuned, and tensioned it will go multitudes of thousands of rounds without any issues whatsoever.
    As far as general cleaning & maintenance is concerned it is a real breeze to totally disassemble the 1911 & quickly pop it back together again.
    OKShooter, you say what I think very well. And much more intelligently!
    Ruger MkII, Kel Tek P3AT, Hi Point JH45, SA XDm9, SA XD9sc, SA 1911 MilSpec Loaded, SA 1911 MilSpec Loaded Micro
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  13. #58
    Member Array jwarren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Really I would have to respectfully disagree with you on many of your points.
    I can really only speak for factory Colt since I presently do not own any clones. The vast majority of Colt 1911s do function perfectly right out of the box & they DO function fine with the Colt factory mags.
    So...if a shooter is OK with the box-stock Colt then really nothing else is needed. I DO grant you the fact that folks do love to customize the stock Colt...some folks just for the heckovit & some because they want it more specifically tailored to their wants and needs. The majority of factory Colt 1911s will also easily handle hollow-point ammo as well as hardball.
    Regarding "replacement intervals" for "parts" really it's only the recoil spring that should be periodically refreshed. Of Course more often with the chopped versions than the full size 1911.
    But, note that now there are Chrome Silicon recoil springs that can go 50,000 recoil cycles without failing.
    I own an old Colt built in 1918 that I still shoot and except for the recoil spring and the fact that I switched out the long trigger for a vintage short trigger (all of my 1911s sport short triggers) it is still running just fine on all of its original parts including the original extractor.
    I would say that most folks become 1911 armorers more because they want to rather than because they really need to.
    It is just a fun gun to customize.
    Where many 1911 pistols run into "function related problems" is by being home-smithed with custom mods that are just not correctly fit & also due to the fact that there are tons of cheapo magazines floating around out there that are just awful.
    Some even made in China with all of the correct factory Colt markings.
    One other issue regarding "feed & function" with the 1911 is an improperly tuned & tensioned extractor.
    But, again once a high quality extractor is properly fit, tuned, and tensioned it will go multitudes of thousands of rounds without any issues whatsoever.
    As far as general cleaning & maintenance is concerned it is a real breeze to totally disassemble the 1911 & quickly pop it back together again.
    Good post.

    I must say that I have never experienced the problems with the 1911 that a lot of these guys keep talking about.

    Maybe I have just had good ones, but my guns run and I mean a lot, as we shoot steel challenge and other gun games without issue with ours. Also, all of our guns are sub $1000 guns and they all run out of the box.

    Matter of fact, my son just got a Para week before last and we carried it to the range, ran 200 through straight out of the box without a bobble using our cast bullet reloads (same bullets we use for steel and tactical). It also ran Fed and Win hp's without issue, just to try a box for function.

    Everyone can have whatever type gun they want, as for me, the 1911 is still my go-to gun and I have other semi's including the much heralded Glock.

  14. #59
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    All of mine have "worked" right out of the box & I've owned many. Even my old vintage radically chopped Detonics functioned perfectly.

    Mine always run perfectly until I start "fixing" them.

    Actually I consider working on them to have been part of a truly rewarding learning process.

    I love the idea of knowing the firearm that I carry inside out, upside-down and forward & backward & I still have stuff to learn.

  15. #60
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    If I was going to war, or needed to be responsible in equiping a complete military going to war or law enforcement, I would choose a glock.

    No need to worry about "tuning" and the skills that go along with it, I would also get more bang for my buck and a weapon interface that requires less training/skill to use.

    It is a drop in "lego" system that anyone can work on with a point and shoot interface that goes bang in the harshest of conditions and is dirt cheap to manufacture (ie purchase).

    Look at law enforcement and that tells you what is the overall prefered platform when everything is taken into account. Each agency can purchase whatever they want and a huge majority still choose glock after all these years.

    There is no doubt that the 1911 does some things better than most, if not all, but when looking at an overall criteria, it doesn't match up when the pistol is needed for the masses.

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