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1911 Resurgence & Premise [Long]

8K views 72 replies 34 participants last post by  azchevy 
#1 ·
Posted here and elsewhere

Question: Does anyone have, or know where to find, a comparison of 1911 platform (makers, frame sizes, barrel lengths combined) sales vs ALL other (single action, double action, safe action, etc. combined) semi auto platform sales over the near term (i.e., last 3-4-5 years)?

Premise: “Back in the day" the 1911 platform (hereafter termed 1911) was THE personal combat sidearm. I am still a disciple of Jeff Cooper. That being said, is the 1911 the “best” personal combat sidearm?

So, what is the definition of the “best personal combat sidearm”? I don’t know. Maybe a combination of power, ergonomics, ease of manual of arms, controllability, availability of the weapon and accessories, etc. etc.

Here’s my hypothesis: after perhaps 30 – 40 years, we have yet to find a *vastly* superior fighting weapon for the average person. Has the Glock outsold? Perhaps. Has it alone outsold ALL 1911 iterations? I can’t say. Is it, or any other platform, the best for the *average person*? I can’t answer the question of what constitutes “the average person,” thus my question about sales.

My answer: 1911 remains the best …

-jb
 
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#3 ·
The 1911 platform numbers would be higher than Glock. I do not know where you would get, if anywhere, definitive figures for this. But, the 1911 platform would be the best selling platform because so many companies offer it, if for no other reason.

My answer.....1911 is the best for me, not necessarily for the average person.
 
#7 ·
It's a purely subjective question, "which is the best". It's impossible, because everyone is so different.

If you're going to compare sales, there are also variables there that are subjective. For example, the average 1911 is more expensive than the average Glock, therefore the average guy is probably going to buy the Glock.
 
#8 ·
There will be NO "vastly" superior handgun until someone invents a phaser.:rolleyes:

They all launch a bitty piece of lead at a moderate velocity. They only differ in the details. You can argue there really hasn't been a revolutionary change in firearms design since the development of the self-contained metallic cartridge, and the repeater.

Popcorn time...this ought to be good.:tongue:
 
#15 ·
Well, set to "stun."

That's how I feel about all this splitting of hairs over various contrivances for flinging projectiles. The "new and improved" is not nearly so advanced as many believe.

And for an automatic pistol, the 1911 is certainly worthy.
 
#16 ·
I would be curious, and of course I cant think of a way to even verify, but if all 1911 fit in the same price catagory as the other populars stuff like, Glock, would even more of them be sold? Or is it a more finite demographic than that.

Some say the 1911 is outdated but I think after 100 years and still going I'd have to say its just an old design the still meets current criteria for a lot of people. There seems to be lots of stuff out there thats just as acurate and effective, and maybe in 100 years we'll be buying up LCP's because they are "classics". It's hard to say of course.

I seem to notice lots of my buddies who are in law enforcement or the military seem to gravitate towards more modern stuff where my buddues who just grew up around guns or just like to shootseem to have a penchant for the classic designs. I know theres plenty of exception to this but it's just been a personal observation for me.

I equate it to musical insturments. For 1000 bucks you can get a really nice keyboard, with infinite amounts of sounds and more capability and capacity thatn you would ever need. Or for the price of a car you can buy a really nice baby grand piano that only does one thing. Its a centuries old design, a classic. And proof that sometimes things have to do a little more than just function, sometimes people just want that cool factor or nostalgia.

For me, I like the slim profile, I like the safety, I love the trigger and I'm comfortable with the capacity. I think the 1911 is the best gun out there but a quick look at any gun store shelf will show that thats not true for everyone. Tons of people put their lives ont he line with other guns that are plenty capable as well.

For the average joe....thats a tough one. When your dealing a gun, caliber, brand, carry method, weight, occupation, strength, etc....I dont find a lot of average anything. About the only common threar they all have is the desire to survive and the unwillingness to become a victim if they can help it. That to me is the vastly superior fighting weapon. What sprays the lead is almost a non issue. If my life is on the line, Ill shoot with anything.

Alex
 
#17 ·
Is 1911 a great weapon? Absolutely.
Do I carry it? Nope.

Whether it is the best out there is completely an opinion. The 1911 lacks what many of us look for in a CCW firearm (lightweight, higher capacity, no safety). But to say it is best is just like saying it is the worst, just someone's opinion. The fact that they are still in production certainly indicates that Browning did a lot right. I don't care what someone carries, just that they carry as often as they can and are a good shot with that firearm.
 
#18 ·
Dear 1911,

I currently do not own you, but you can be sure that i will this year. Happy 100th birthday to you. I know you are born in many different varieties, and i am not sure which one of you to get. Hopefully i can save up enough to buy two this year. You have been carried in every war since your introduction, and loved around the entire world. I look foward to meeting you soon.

Sincerely, Bunker
 
#19 ·
The 1911 was built as a combat soldiers sidearm. There are many platforms and calibers that simply outdo it for personal civilian defense and law enforcement duty, but it has cemented it's place in history for sure.
 
#37 ·
I agree. It was not built to such tight tolerances in the beginiing but as shooters started to push for bullseye accuracy it became less reliable. They are great guns but I feel that there are better choices. However these choices are better for me and may not work for you. In my opinion the Glock 17 is probably the pinnacle of the combat sidearm. Any of the Glock 9mm guns would be my choice as a sidearm should I enter a combat zone. My personal carry gun is a Glock 19 unless I need a smaller gun. If I do need a smaller gun I take my Glock 26. I will not go smaller then the Glock 26.

I do feel the 1911 is a great gun and has a great history. I carried one for a little while but I am much more comfortable with my Glocks. They are lighter and I prefer not having a manual safety on the gun. It is also nice to have a larger capacity then the 1911 has.
 
#20 ·
The 1911 GREAT!!!!! I don't dispute that at all! If I burried a 1911 empty and open and burried a Glock beside it the same and had to pick one up to defend my life with I wouldn't pick the 1911.
 
#25 ·
Yes, but since I don't bury my pistols in the ground empty and open, I would prefer to defend myself with either of my military 1911s rather than any Glock ever made. I'm familiar with them and trust their reliability. Obviously the point being made has to do with Glock reliability under adverse conditions but I'm willing to own 1911s that are not kept full of dirt and am not willing to own Glocks.

Just another opinion.
 
#21 ·
A couple of replies, so as not to abandon my own thread:
First, I've seen here and elsewhere replies referencing 1911s' cost. Keep in mind we're discussing a platform, not a assumed-high dollar sidearm. Perfectly serviceable RIA, Taurus, and the like can be had around the $500 price point. [shrug]

Then weight. My newly purchased SW1911PD is around 26oz. I just sold a very solid Taurus PT-145 (admittedly not a 1911 platform, but perhaps representative of the cumulative "other" styles) that weighed 25oz. I can't tell the difference in an ounce.

Reliability. Again, referenced in several places. But really. Do any of us, or combatants in general, really bury weapons and expect reliability? Most decently made firearms will function in realistically poor conditions with a modicum of maintenence.

Finally, also here and elsewhere, are a LOT of responses to the effect of "I had a 1911 and want to go back," or "I don't have a 1911, but really want one." [shrug again] I can't quantify it, but there sure seems to be a big "wish factor," for better or worse.

Just sayin' ...

-jb
 
#24 ·
Posted here and elsewhere


So, what is the definition of the “best personal combat sidearm”? I don’t know. Maybe a combination of power, ergonomics, ease of manual of arms, controllability, availability of the weapon and accessories, etc. etc.


-jb
The biggest baddest gun you can carry and shoot comfortably and accurately. If thats a 22 then so be it, it's still better than a rock.
Now that being said, I pretty much like anything with a trigger that goes bang, but I love my 1911.
 
#28 ·
So, what is the definition of the “best personal combat sidearm”? I don’t know. Maybe a combination of power, ergonomics, ease of manual of arms, controllability, availability of the weapon and accessories, etc. etc.

-jb
If your basing it on your criteria of power, ergonomics, manual of arms, controllability, and weapons accesories, then I would have to say there are others that would be better than a 1911.

There are other guns that are ergonomically as good or better than a 1911. Manual of arms, well there are many that have a more simple manual of arms than a 1911. Power, any 45 acp with a 5 inch barrel will have about the same power, controllabilty is going to depend on the shooter, and weapons accesories, well I think that the 1911 will loose that one as well.

If one wants to base the decision on the fact that the 1911 has been around 100 years and is still popular, then there is no point in arguing that since the 1911 will always be one of the oldest semiauto platforms. The new guns will never catch up in age. Age of a platform really has no bearing on whether or not it is the best personal combat sidearm.

I think that if you really want to know the answer to the question you have to simply look at one thing. What is being used now. Is the 1911 the main platform for the vast majority of military, police or personal defense weapons today. The answer is simple. NO. What is the saying, "the proof is in the pudding". If the 1911 was still the superior platform it would be the most used today, but it isn't. For whatever reason, other platforms have replaced the 100 year old design.

The fact that there is not one single platform being used today is proof that there isn't a single gun that is the best. You can find anything from Sig, Glock, S&W, Berretta, H&K, 1911's and a number of other platforms that are choosen by various agencies, departments and individuals based on their specific needs and criteria.

Short answer: There is no one best platform. Are 1911's good guns and a good platform, absolutely, but not the "best" by any means today.
 
#29 ·
I shoot 1911s slightly better than other guns. That said my EDC and go to guns are H&K and Sig. Not as finicky about ammo and no safety something I do not want on my carry gun. Put a 1911 trigger on my favorite H&K, P2000, along with a grip safety and for me it would be the perfect gun
 
#31 ·
OK - I'm jumping in a bit later than I thought I would so since some "stuff" has already been covered I'll add a different angle.

It is pretty much a "given" that the 1911 (properly tuned) is one of the most reliable firearms out there. There are other handguns (of course) that are equally as reliable.
The single stack 1911 is probably ergonomically one of the finest firearms ever designed and built. It also has one of the triggers.

I would have to truthfully say that the custom built 1911 CAN BE one of the finest personal defense handguns ever & especially these days and here is why.

Start off with a forged frame and slide. The forged & machined 1911 slide is overbuilt and can easily handle .44 Magnum pressures which has been proved by hand-loading steel cased .45ACP up to not quite .44 mag velocities (of course) adding a much heavier recoil spring. The slides and standard COLT factory barrel handled that HOT HOT loading hundreds of rounds - without a hitch though the factory Colt extractor took a beating.

Now add a custom barrel (Barsto - Ed Brown - etc.) which are true works of art with regard to the precision machining & they are hardened & cryogenic treated AKA some of the finest, toughest, strongest & most accurate handgun barrels ever manufactured...ever...in the history of MAN on this planet.

Now we also have the finest indestructible "tool steel" firing pins, firing pin stops, Chrome Silicon recoil springs (which can easily do 50,000 cycles) & still maintain their integrity.

We now also have THE finest EDMed Tool Steel hammers & precision sears & let's also mention some of the finest aftermarket magazines ever constructed - the "parts" list goes on & on.

In short Every Single Part of the 1911 has been aftermarket manufactured by various manufacturers to some of the highest & most incredible standards in the firearm industry.

Inclusive of that I need to mention the Evolution Gun Works parts like the Thumb Safety & the Slide Stop that are now completely CNC machined from solid blocks of the finest steel & then hardened & tempered. Those & the other EGW parts are absolutely the best. Expensive...but, you get what you pay for.

Now it is possible to add say....a Nowlin extractor...overbuilt, fully machined, hardened tool steel, cryo treated - basically unbreakable for its function.

OK...I could go on for every single 1911 part down to the grip screws & bushings.

SO....now we can have a personal sidearm...admittedly an expensive one...:biggrin2: that is an astounding 100% overbuilt for the .45ACP cartridge - with the best trigger - fantastic ergonomics & inherent (shoots where you look) point-ability - in a firearm that can be easily & completely fully disassembled & popped back together again....in the field if necessary. That's a huge plus. :yup:

The 1911 can be run with full reliability completely devoid of all traces of lubrication which has been tested and proved in extreme Arctic conditions.
The gun eats up dirt, grit, & sand. It will function filthy dirty.

Look at the long history of the FACTORY Colt firearms and how incredibly well they have survived for ages with standard Colt factory parts/internals but, they were machines and small parts broke occasionally & very sporadically. Replacing those was pretty much a (pop in a new one) "total breeze" though.

And my bottom line is that....

Remember the "age old" argument is that "every gun is a machine & all machines can break" well, with the modern day 1911 & the totally mind boggling quality of the aftermarket parts that are now available...it really is now possible to build a "machine" that for all intent and purpose just won't break under the harshest and most abusive of SHTF conditions.

But, of course that firearm needs to be properly assembled by an expert that knows the 1911 inside and out.


Also keep in mind that there are tons of 1911 clones floating around out there.
Many of them are cast, tossed together, with inferior & MIM parts or sub-standard parts & I consider them to be "clones" and copies of various quality (some are just fine - some are better than others & some just plain crap)

I would say for The Ideal & Best Personal Defense Combat Handgun (for me) it would be a Custom Built 1911.
 
#32 ·
A great post QKshooter!

"Also keep in mind that there are tons of 1911 clones floating around out there.
Many of them are cast, tossed together, with inferior & MIM parts or sub-standard parts..."

I hope I live long enough to see the shooting world bedeviled by clones of all the favorite "modern" designs along with the uneven quality of the myriad renditions of their component parts.
 
#35 ·
Best? Well, it is not an exaggeration to say there are none better. I truly love my SIG P229 DAKs, that I use for police duty and much personal-time carry; they are 100% reliable. It makes sense in several ways to use the same platform almost all the time. But, I started handgunning with a 1911 in the early 1980's, which was actually a forgettable off-brand I soon sold off, and still have a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. The TRS has been 100% reliable over time. The SIGs and TRS are both great, evolved, mature designs. I think the SIG DAKs have an edge for police duty and what Mas Ayoob termed threat management, whereas the 1911 is a great battle pistol. Either pistol can perform either job, but each pistol has an edge for each task.

FWIW, the .40 Glocks I briefly used as duty pistols between the 1911s and the present SIGs were NOT 100% reliable. They were quite good, but not 100%. IMHO, folks should stay away from .40 and .45 Glocks if they don't like drama; whereas 9mm Glocks are truly great pistols, almost certain to run reliably over time.
 
#36 ·
Credit where credit is due. The Glock is yet another incredible handgun innovation. Uber reliable and & certainly tried & torture tested and I don't know of any other handgun that has gone the # of rounds endurance testing in a test handgun as as Glock.

And of course DO remember that the SIG Handguns began life years ago as The Sig/Sauer System SIG/Browning BDA .45 & is a J. M. Browning design also. :biggrin2:
 
#39 ·
So, what is the definition of the “best personal combat sidearm”?

To me this is a subjective question and dependent upon multiple factors. Would a glock or a 1911 be better? For me, the answer would be no. I currently own 2 1911s as my only handguns. While I am familiar with the operation of the platform, i will admit that my knowledge of the platform is not the best (I am attempting to rectify that as I type this). FOR ME, my best combat weapon would be a revolver. I am more familiar with it's operation and I shoot them better. I am more comfortable with it and trust them more than any other handgun. So for me, the answer would be the revolver. Are they the most effective weapon against multiple targets? No, based on the amount of ammo available at any given time. Because of my familiarity of the revolver, i can reload them (with speed loader) as fast as I can an automatic. Granted, that is my own limitation but it is an honest evaluation. My next purchase for concealed carry will be a ruger sp-101 or LCR in .357. Based on MY personal threat evaluation, it should be more than I will ever need. The 1911 is, in my view, one of the sexist weapons available and once i become comfortable with its operation (emergency action requirements), it may become my weapon of choice. I would never throw rocks at another persons selection as they may be more comfortable with some other platform. Who am I to say what is right or wrong for someone else. I know what works for me and I am well aware of my limitations and knowledge base.
 
#40 ·
What's better? Ford or Chevy? It is all an opinion and fun to argue about. Yeah, I prefer a 1911 and I am carrying one right now, but there are so many good guns available to us. We are lucky in that respect. We all have loyalties to certain things - my pistol loyalties belong with the 1911 (and I like Chevy pick-ups), however, I would not feel handicapped carrying my Beretta 92 and someday I will own a Sig 220 (maybe, I will even go with a Ford F150 someday).
 
#46 ·
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html.



the patents which list Gaston Glock as inventor, i am sure I am missing some....

PAT. NO. Title
1 6,643,968 Pistol with a device for determining the number of shots
2 6,478,202 Holster
3 6,276,581 Holster for a firearm
4 6,230,414 Rear sight for firearm
5 5,485,695 Laser aiming device
6 4,893,546 Automatic pistol
7 4,825,744 Automatic pistol
8 4,539,889 Automatic pistol with counteracting spring control mechanism
9 4,475,757 Spade

Numbers 6 and 7 have lifetime left.
 
#45 ·
Simply existing for a long time is no garauntee of anything other than...existing. The M16 platform has served the US military longer than ANY other rifle, by a pretty good margin. And yet I would bet dollars to doughnuts that many folks extolling the virtues of the 1911 (and there are many, don't get me wrong) would scoff at the "plastic fantastic" and choose another rifle for their purposes. That is, of course, their absolute right - but it breaks down any argument that pure longevity is any sort of 1:1 correlation to "best-est-ness."

As for all the after market parts...ever think that there are so many because (gasp!) in many cases the factory ones aren't good enough?

And finally (and more to the OP's point), I would again bet dollars to doughnuts that Glock outsells - worldwide and including police/government contracts - all 1911s combined. Even if they don't, the fact that it's even a question says something...one manufacturer outselling, in effect DOZENS of combined manufacturers is a reasonable endorsement for that one manufacturer, IMO.

BTW, my P228 loves these Glock vs. 1911 (or any one else) discussions a good deal. :)
 
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