Can it be? Tangle with a Kimber Pro Carry?? pic heavy - Supplemental in OP

This is a discussion on Can it be? Tangle with a Kimber Pro Carry?? pic heavy - Supplemental in OP within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Supplemental: I thought this would be worth adding. I also added it in post #23. And I will admit this did have some influence on ...

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Thread: Can it be? Tangle with a Kimber Pro Carry?? pic heavy - Supplemental in OP

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    Can it be? Tangle with a Kimber Pro Carry?? pic heavy - Supplemental in OP

    Supplemental:
    I thought this would be worth adding. I also added it in post #23. And I will admit this did have some influence on my decision. I found this several places on the web:

    "The Tacoma, Washington Police Department recently completed a testing program to determine what pistol their officers would carry. The test involved nine brands, 39 models and three calibers of semi-automatic pistols. Kimber won, and officers now have the option of selecting a Kimber Pro Carry II or Pro Carry HD II for duty.

    The test results are staggering. Other than Kimber, pistols had a failure rate as high as 22%. Kimber had the lowest failure rate Tacoma PD has recorded in over 20 years of testing for any type of firearm – less than one half of one percent! They also determined that the Kimber was safer than other test pistols when the safety was in the “on” position."

    End Supplemental ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    At the range the other day a guy walked up to me and handed me a Kimber Ultra Carry and a mag full of ammo. Well, I grabbed it and shot it before he could change his mind. Although the Ultra is small and light (AL alloy frame) it shot great, nice trigger response, mild recoil (much to my surprise) and quite accurate!

    So I think, hmmm, I’ve been needing to trade one of my guns and I sure do like that Kimber. But I wanted a 4” barrel instead of the 3” on the Ultra and I started looking around town. The only thing I could find with a 4” barrel was a Kimber Pro Carry at Benton’s Shooting Supply – 32 miles from my house but a beautiful drive. So I load up my dog, Tangle, and my wife and we’re off on a family outing!



    The Kimber Pro Carry is a 1911 style gun with an AL alloy frame, a 4" barrel, and full size grip. It weighs 28 oz - the same as a Sig P229, but of course the Pro is a single stack and holds 7 or 8 rounds depending on which mag capacity you trust the most.

    As do all Kimbers, it comes with one black 7 round magazine. This particular Pro is the Pro Carry II, which means it has an active firing pin block safety. There are two popular ways to achieve this, one being the Colt series 80 way that involves some linkages to the trigger which some claim they can feel. The second way, and this is the way the Pro is, is to use a simple plunger/connector that is operated by the grip safety instead of the trigger. It's really quite simple and I'll have some pics of it later.

    Here's my current carry rig for the Kimber Pro Carry; a Kramer horsehide Vertical Scabbord. It's actually for a Commander (4-1/4" barrel length) but it works well - just a quarter of an inch long.



    Looks like this on:




    I figured it'd be wise to show you some pretty pics before I resume 'texting'.

    Before I get into my long tale, let me say that I am surprised about the recoil. This is a light 1911 (28 oz) and I was shooting 230 gn range ammo (Blazer Al case) and the recoil, while not as mild as a 124 gn 9mm in my P250 (22 oz), it's not bad at all. I found follow up shots to be pretty quick.

    I dropped Tangle and my wife off at home and headed to Shooter’s Depot. The first 50 rounds were absolutely miserable - I as literally all over the paper. Had a couple of mals. My shooting didn’t improve on the second 50 either and now I have a blister on my thumb where it contacts the thumb safety – anybody want a compact 1911! I tucked my tail an went home.

    The trigger on the Ultra was great; the trigger on this Pro was odd. I noticed a distinct drag up to the break point and then it seemed to have a bit heavier break than the Ultra, but still not too bad. So I sat and pouted and sulked some and convinced myself it was just a bad day.

    The next day off I go again to make things right. No better luck – I was steaming - make me an offer – got a good knife you would be willing to trade! So I go back home and pout, fuss, and grumble all night.

    The next day, I decide to check some things. The trigger was breaking at about 4 lbs, but it was a ‘dirty’ break. My Gunsite 1911 has a smooth, crisp, clean break at 3.25 lbs. The first thing I did was to relieve some tension on the trigger return leaf spring. I re-measured the pull weight and it had not changed an ounce, which meant I really didn’t make any adjustment.

    Next I disassembled the entire frame assembly and checked everything. I didn’t see anything amiss – very clean and smooth trigger bow channel – nothing that could account for the strange pre-break drag. I detail cleaned every part, and applied Gun Butter grease (it’s a very light grease) to everything that made any kind of moving contact with anything. I reassembled the gun and pulled the trigger – WOW - it was great! The drag was completely gone, and the trigger was lighter – now a clean, crisp, 3.25 lbs break (maybe just a bit less in fact)!

    While I was straining my arm, patting myself on the back for such good work, I looked down and noticed a small piece of black plastic lying on the table. Hmmm, what’s this? It looked like ‘flashing’ from a plastic part. Where’d that come from? Well, that would sure explain some things if it came out of the gun. I can’t really say what it is or where it came from; it could have been totally unrelated, but it could also explain that ‘dirty’ trigger. OK - back to the range.




    They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so here’s a couple of thousand – these are all at 7 yards:

    The top target is faster fire, not necessarily rapid fire, but not slow fire either. The hits on the orange dot is slow fire.



    Well, that was probably just luck; here's the second shot:



    And the third shot:



    and here's the conclusion of that first orange dot, a group on a second 2" diameter dot, and the group for a 1" diameter dot:


    Multiple targets @ 7 yds by ron.0000, on Flickr

    So in summary, I am not just pleased, but estatic! Now, if I just don't have any of the known 'Kimber' issues.
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    The Pro uses a 'bushingless' barrel/slide interface so it field strips a bit differently than a government model 1911. There is no barrel bushing to rotate to release the barrel, etc. from the slide. The full-length guide rod has a small hole in it as shown here BTW, some of the pics were made as I stripped it to clean it so you may see a little dirt:



    With the slide locked open, a small tool, about the same diameter as a paper clip, in fact you could easily make one out of a paper clip, is inserted (short end) into the hole:



    Next the the slide locked is released and lowered carefully until it stops on the tool. You can remove the slide and then remove the guide rod and recoil spring from the slide.



    The barrel comes out the front just like a government model.



    I find this method is actually easier than the standard bushing arrangement. The serious drawback to this method is you have to have the tool or something equivalent to field strip it. That could be a real problem. On to the FPB safety.

    I mentioned in the OP that the Pro II has an active firing pin block. The Pro uses the grip safety to disengage the RPB and consists of a plunger type link in the frame and a FPB in the slide. Here's where the plunger is in the frame. It's the smaller 'nub' in the left of the frame. The other one, in the center of the frame is the disconnector:



    Here's what that little plunger contacts in the slide. It's actually pretty hard to see in this pic; I should have lightened the pic up a bit. But, it's just to the left of that little moon looking cavity in the center of the slide:



    I also want to mention one other thing. The mag channel is flared at the mouth, but not so much as to be helpful as you can see here:



    So it's not gonna be conducive to high speed, glitch-free speed reloads - probably a minor issue though and most single stack, compact guns will be the same way.

    I really like this gun so far. I've got 300 rounds through it so far and in the last 100 there were no mals, so the early ones I experienced were likely break-in issues.
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    los
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    Now, THAT'S what I call a vulgar display of exceptional accuracy..!

    Congrats on your new Kimby.
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    Quote Originally Posted by los View Post
    Now, THAT'S what I call a vulgar display of exceptional accuracy..!

    Congrats on your new Kimby.
    los - you've got a way with words man!

    Thanks for the kind words!
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    Tangle is now a Kimber MIMber Member?



    BTW the "mush/creep" in a 1911 trigger can often be cured by degreasing the hammer and sear and then "jacking" the hammer a few times which is done by levering some upward pressure on the hammer and simultaneously pulling the trigger. The trigger will feel harder to pull while you are doing that. That is normal.
    You can "make the tool" by wrapping some tape around a screwdriver blade so that you don't mar any gun-metal and placing that between the hammer & the beavertail/grip safety and then levering upward pressure on the hammer.
    Take it slow & easy though because (just like anything else) it's possible to overdo it. Remember that the "lever" is a powerful lifting tool that greatly amplifies force.
    Check the trigger pull after each time that you do it.
    That forces the sear engagement surface over the corresponding hammer surface under greater than normal pressure and will usually smooth things out a bit and will often remove much of the mush in the pull. It forces the engagement surfaces to better mate.
    It was historically termed "The Poor Mans Trigger Job" & while it seems like it might be a half-assed thing to do....it was a procedure sometimes done by Colt armorers as a final step to get rid of a bit of final slop and "crisp up" a trigger let-off after installing a new hammer and sear. Even after honing the sear surface.
    I know that it does work on 1911 parts but, the Kimber hammer/sear parts are of a different manufacture (as you have heard me gripe about on numerous past occasions) & I've never owned or done it to a Kimber.
    So...pays yer money & takes yer chances if you want to try it on your new purchase.

    I should add that with some beavertail styles and rowel (Commander style) hammers it's impossible to get a screwdriver blade between the hammer & the grip safety & in that case you need to accomplish the task by using a tapered brass rod between the hammer & the extended frame tail.

    BUT, maybe if you're already shooting it as well as you are then don't do anything.

    Good thread. BTW.

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    Man that is sweeeeeet!!!! congrats

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    Hey Tangle...I really hope you enjoy this gun...BUT...I gotta say I don't "get" the fascination that some here have with trigger "feel." I get the same accuracy out of my box-stock Glocks, LCPs (!) and PM9 (I've posted the pics to prove it in the past for you doubters out there ). Point is that if you know how to work a trigger, it really doesn't matter - unless you have a trigger with a super-ridiculously heavy pull weight.

    And with the guns I mentioned, you don't need to do the hokey-pokey to get them apart. (just funnin' ya! )

    Anywho...have fun. Hope the rest of the break-in is uneventful.
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    Mighty fine targets!

    The II-series Kimbers use the Swartz firng pin safety system. Conceptually no more complicated than the Colt Series 80, but... in the 1911 rooms there has been much talk about problems with it. In particular, one has to pay attention to NOT depressing the grip safety when removing the slide for maintenance. Clearances and tolerances are such that is is possible ( not saying likely) for the plunger to wear and not unblock the FP when the grip safety is depressed. At some point down the line I think I'll remove those parts from my CDP Pro II and just go with the simpler light FP/heavy spring approach that Springers and others employ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Tangle is now a Kimber MIMber Member?
    Yep, it's true - this may be a learning experience, but I also recall when stainless steel caused a lot of problems and they got that straightened out. I'm hoping the same will happen with MIM.

    As far as the trigger goes, it already has a clean, crisp break just under 3.25 lbs - I'm afraid to do anything to it .

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    ...Good thread. BTW.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Hey Tangle...I really hope you enjoy this gun...BUT...I gotta say I don't "get" the fascination that some here have with trigger "feel."
    It's really not a fascination about trigger feel, but getting the trigger to do what it's supposed to do the way it's supposed to do it. This was not a typical 1911 response and it needed to be corrected.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...I get the same accuracy out of my box-stock Glocks, LCPs (!) and PM9 (I've posted the pics to prove it in the past for you doubters out there ). Point is that if you know how to work a trigger, it really doesn't matter - unless you have a trigger with a super-ridiculously heavy pull weight.
    That's interesting because I find I shoot a DAO trigger as well as anything, and I too have posted pictures and videos to support that. But what was so interesting about this is the same day and session that I shot the above targets with the Pro Carry, it was Glock day at the range and Glock was there with a bunch of Glocks and you could shoot any of them. I chose a G-17 and the difference in trigger pull was absolutely incredible. I've always wondered what the fascination with the SA trigger, esp. the 1911 and that gave me a distinct demonstration of what it is.

    I actually though there was something wrong with the Glock trigger. I had to pull and pull and pull to get it to fire. But this is what I did with it:



    So while I did just as well with the Glock, the Pro Carry did the same thing much easier and faster. I have never seen anything illustrate such a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...And with the guns I mentioned, you don't need to do the hokey-pokey to get them apart. (just funnin' ya! ).
    That take-down is typical of compact 1911s; the government models don't require any tools unless the barrel bushing is too tight.

    It's really easy to take the Pro down; you just have to have a paper clip or the tool - that's the troubling thing - after that it's easy. Just lock the slide back, insert the tool, remove the slide lock pin and all that's left is to strip the slide like any other gun.
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    If your shooting the Kimber that good, just imagine what you could do with a high quality gun! J/K.

    Nice shooting and great report.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Mighty fine targets!
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    ...The II-series Kimbers use the Swartz firng pin safety system. Conceptually no more complicated than the Colt Series 80, but... in the 1911 rooms there has been much talk about problems with it. In particular, one has to pay attention to NOT depressing the grip safety when removing the slide for maintenance. Clearances and tolerances are such that is is possible ( not saying likely) for the plunger to wear and not unblock the FP when the grip safety is depressed. At some point down the line I think I'll remove those parts from my CDP Pro II and just go with the simpler light FP/heavy spring approach that Springers and others employ.
    1911s have been around for how many years without a FPB? I don't believe I have ever heard of a discharge due to dropping a 1911. I think there's some paranoia about the 'drop' thing, but from what I understand, it takes a ridiculous drop, and it has to land on the muzzle to get a discharge.
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    Very nice Kimber and very nice report . Congrats and enjoy
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    Beautiful gun! Good shooting too! Wish I could afford one, but with my eyes, my target will never look like that! I can hit the orange, but they don't touch each other like many of yours did.
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    I don't know if the way I feel about triggers is a fascination, or a fettish

    It's a big deal, to me, and 1911 pistols have no equal IMO. The trigger is one of the finer points where man meets machine. The eye and the finger all make it happen.

    Nice gun and nice report, Tangle.
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    Looks like your Kimber is a winner...congrats on the purchase!
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