BB Air Pistols
This is a discussion on BB Air Pistols within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm sure anyone seeing the title of this thread will go "WHAT?!?" but I just had to share this. Gotta read all the way through.
June 3rd, 2011 09:22 AM
BB Air Pistols
I'm sure anyone seeing the title of this thread will go "WHAT?!?" but I just had to share this. Gotta read all the way through.
I was in a sporting goods store yesterday looking at "real" guns and I remembered my wife told me to go look for an airsoft gun for my daughter. Since she is too afraid to fire the real guns when we take her to the range, maybe the airsoft gun will be an easier introduction to projectile weapons.
Well, sure, they had dozens of different airsoft guns, but what caught my eye was seeing a Walther PPK hanging on the shelf. This was no airsoft gun. After closer examination, I realized it was a traditional BB gun (the kind with the metal BBs) But I swear the gun looked as real as could be. It was $69 and powered by CO2 containers. I decided to buy it. Here's a photo of it:
Well, upon getting home I was as thrilled as could be with this thing. It actually works almost like a real gun. It is made of metal, not plastic like your typical airsoft gun. It has a slide with blow-back action, which loads the next BB. The slide stays open when it is out of ammo. It has a magazine that loads on the bottom, just like a real gun. And it does not have that orange muzzle like an airsoft gun would have.
I tried it out and it can easily penetrate an empty soda can and exit out the other side. I'll try some more ballistics with it this evening when I get home from work.
Okay.. so why should anyone care about this on a forum dealing with real guns?
Well, after playing with this one in my backyard a bit I decided to do some research on the internet. Turns out there are quite a few "replica air guns" out there. Some of them take pellets and some of them boast velocity ratings of 400 fps or more. (mine is only 295 fps) Some of the rifles are over 1000 fps. That puts these in the same ballpark as real firearms and could most certainly kill a person. The one I have is not likely to be able to kill somebody, but it could sure bloody somebody up.
Anyway, I got to thinking. These things look very realistic. If you couldn't afford a real gun, or you were not eligible for a real gun due to your age or background, this might make a possible self defense gun. Here's my reasoning on this. It looks real for starters. As we know, in most cases of self-defense, all one needs to do is point a gun at the bad guy and he will run. If looking real isn't good enough, you can "chamber a round." It looks and sounds just like chambering a round on a real gun. It will definitely take away any ideas that it might be an airsoft gun. And in a worse case scenario, you can pepper the bad guy with BBs. I can't imagine it would be any less effective than pepper spray. A few good facial shots might even blind the bad guy. If you got lucky, maybe a few shots to the neck might hit an artery.
Anyway, I have no intention on carrying one as a self-defense weapon as I have the real thing and a carry permit. But it might not be a bad choice for somebody else. I did get an airsoft gun for my daughter. I am going to start her off with that, then move to the BB gun, and hopefully onto a .22LR as I work her up through the calibers over the next few years.
June 3rd, 2011 09:35 AM
I think it is a fine idea to start the youngster with bb/pellet/airsoft then advancing to .22lr etc.
Regarding ccw with a BB gun, I'm just gonna say I think that is a bad idea & leave it at that.
NRA Endowment Member
GOA Life Member
June 3rd, 2011 09:58 AM
Well, the most powerful pellet handgun would probably be the Evanix Hunting Master AR6 which launches a .22 caliber pellet at 1100 FPS but, it really is not suited for carry.
So basically the most powerful .22 air gun handgun would be equivalent to having the most anemic .22 caliber rim-fire available for personal protection.
For sure better than a blank firing starter pistol but, still not much to depend on or bet your bacon on.
The only problem with packing a handgun that depends on visual scare factor for intimidation is that sometimes it takes lots more than that to stop the bad guys that aren't intimidated from giving you a toe tag.
The Walther sure is an authentic looking repro though.
June 3rd, 2011 03:18 PM
We need a thread... BB gun, Raven .25... or a rock
Yes, there are quite a few replica BB/pellet guns. They've really come a long way.
June 3rd, 2011 03:59 PM
Well, turns out my Walther PPK air pistol isn't as powerful as I thought it might be. I decided to try shooting a few more things today. One of the first things on the list was a phone book. They aren't good for anything else these days, but they keep leaving them on my doorstep. I was disappointed that the BB just bounces off of the phone book, leaving only a minor scratch on the front cover. However, it does seem able to penetrate soda cans, cat food cans, and plastic bottles. Earlier today I ordered one of the Walther PC99 air pistols, which not only looks cooler, but has about 50% more power behind it.
Still, despite being very underpowered, I can still assure it would hurt like hades to be shot with the thing.
June 3rd, 2011 05:45 PM
June 3rd, 2011 11:56 PM
I bought this at Bass Pro recently. I have been shooting it indoors at home into homemade traps. Seems to be a great way to get some trigger time in and it's alot of fun. I wear eye protection when shooting just in case. Looks pretty real!
June 4th, 2011 04:03 PM
Your not really considering a BB gun for a defense gun, are you? We used to have BB gun wars when we were kids ( Crossman 760s) there are around 700 fps and we are all still alive. The only safty gear, was a pair of safty glasses and a winter coat. Maybe Im lucky that my 9 yr and 7 yr old will shoot my 9mms...
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......
June 4th, 2011 05:37 PM
I can make somebody bleed with a spoon, but I don't carry around a spoon.
Despite this, airsoft and BB guns are fun. I've been looking at getting the Umarex Hk USP CO2 powered BB gun for fun. Sure the package says "this is NOT a toy".... but it's exactly what they are.
June 4th, 2011 05:38 PM
The only other question is whether to keep a BB in the chamber when carrying.
Originally Posted by PAcanis
June 4th, 2011 07:16 PM
With a firearm, the implication is that if you did shoot, that the shot would at least start to have *some* kind of effect on the BG.
With a BB/pellet gun, unless you get really lucky with the shot - either an eye shot or something of the like, or even one of those freakish shots that actually manages to penetrate the thoracic/abdominal cavity and cause sufficient damage to a vital organ (wasn't there a case, back in the early 2000s, that a male teen-age child was killed with a traditional air-powered pellet pistol/rifle?) - you can't really count on it to have all that much of an effect on-target.
I'd therefore be very, very hesitant to even use it as a posturing device: as the ability to follow-through with the threat really is lacking.
And that's not even considering the potentially lethal "legal" concerns. In my home state of Ohio, for example, replica firearms are considered to be firearms: this includes airsoft (I've been an airsoft hobbyist since 1999 or so, out of dis-satisfaction with paintball as a hobby) as well as traditional air-guns - assuming a worst-possible-case scenario, escaping an encounter with a BG, having scared him or her away with the airgun/airsoft, but then running into a situation where they decided to call you in as a M(W)WAG, I would not want to face either the legal complications or that encounter with the police.....
For those who are unable to secure a legal firearm and/or legal permit for self-defense use, I would encourage you to look into other, proven, alternatives.
For the record:
I've been a long-time supporter of using airsoft as a training tool. Be it Force-on-Force, basic manipulations, or just some good "anywhere indoors" plinking to tighten-up on your marksmanship fundamentals, it's a great tool, and has been adopted by many well-regarded trainers/schools and everyone from hobbyist to professional shooters.
I currently use airsoft in much the same way as the OP of this thread - I have a 5 and 1/2 year-old daughter, and I'm using this rather soft-spoken yet utterly realistic device as one more tier in her gun-safety education. Of my collection, she's really taken to my Maruzen PPK/S replica.
My first reaction at the "anything that looks like a gun is a gun" (paraphrasing, of-course! ) laws of Ohio was an instinctual "whoa!" - not a good gut-feeling, at all.
But it also took me less than a minute to process the thought, and come to realize that it's actually not a bad thing.
Because it doesn't have an LEO, responding to a MWAG report, worrying about whether or not there's a painted red stripe on the front of what appears to be, from all other visual cues, a pistol. It takes that uncertainty out of the equation, and instead puts in its place a very reasonable and logical conclusion.
In addition to having used airsoft replicas in Force-on-Force training as well as having participated in airsoft gaming (sadly, the last time I did that was in 2004 ), I well understand, first-hand the importance of safety practices which not only cover the actual physical use of these "projectile" devices, but also the response they can elicit from unaware observers (including citizens with valid CCW/CHL) and law-enforcement.
Please, be safe (and smart) with your airguns and airsoft replicas.
June 4th, 2011 08:06 PM
If you are in a situation where you need to present a firearm, that means you should be mentally prepared to have to use it. What happens if you carry one of these and someone pulls your bluff?
I think it is a horrible idea for SD. They make a good training tool, but for SD, certainly not. If you think that just pulling a firearm and racking a round is what it takes to survive a lethal encounter (there shouldn't be a need to rack a round because most weapons are designed to be carried condition 1), then you may want to reconsider your mindset as you carry a gun.
Taking a life is a grave think, and something to be taken seriously, but if you carry a gun, you need to be prepared to use it.
I would also wonder about the legal ramifications of carrying one.
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
June 4th, 2011 11:03 PM
I guess you didn't read all of my post.. No, I am not considering such a thing because I have several real guns. But, lets say I was 17 years old. I would be allowed to purchase one of these but not a real gun. Heck, in Texas you have to be 18 just to purchase a rifle, 21 for a handgun.
Originally Posted by Harryball
I'm also not saying that the air gun would be effective in all situations. For example if the bad guy has a real gun, you are kind of screwed. But then again, you couldn't be any worse off than you would have been with nothing at all. But there are some situations, where it might be good. I've heard several people on this website mention situations where, for example, they were out at night at an ATM and were being approached by some bad guys. In those cases, simply pulling out the weapon was enough to make them run off. In this case, the air gun would have worked just as well.
My point was, if your alternative was nothing at all, having the air-gun would be beneficial some times.
Also, as a follow up. I started gun training my 8 year old daughter today. She has learned how to load her airsoft gun and actually hit a soda can about 10 feet away about every other shot. It will knock the can over, but will not damage it. I let her fire the PPK BB gun a couple of times. It will penetrate right through the can. But I'm not quite prepared to let her use that one much unsupervised as she is still making some safety mistakes such as not putting the airsoft gun back on safety, and accidentally pointing it at people. So when I get her a little more practiced on safety, then I'll move her up to the real BB gun, and eventually to the .22LR pistols.
Also - another moment of learning happened today. I left the gun safe open when shooting her airsoft gun. I told her to go in and get me the new BB gun. When she came back outside, she handed me a loaded Glock 19. You should have seen the look on my face. She thought that was the BB gun. And for all of you guys who keep saying to keep one in the chamber, I was very, very glad that I do not keep a round chambered. At least if she had pulled the trigger, nothing would have happened. All of the other guns in the safe are not even loaded.
June 4th, 2011 11:48 PM
^ I still don't like the idea of having a gun that can't do a gun's job. It's a display of force that's a complete bluff: what good does it really do?
Why not a can of "pepper spray?"
Why not a TASER?
Why not a quality defensive folder/knife? Or strike-capable tactical flashlight?
Kubotan/"tactical pen," perhaps a combo with a key-flail?
Sure, some BGs may buy the bluff, but there's no way to make that call for-sure: what if it just incites them to do worse? i.e. "OMG, he pulled a gun, I'm gonna die so I'm just gonna bum-rush him!"
The problem with youth and airsoft/BB-guns is that it's so easy to confuse them with real-steel.
Many of my high-end replicas are virtually indistinguishable from their true real-steel counterparts, to the point that an adult who is well-versed in gun-culture would not be able to tell real from replica, without at least being able to pick up the item in-question.
You'll need to redouble your safety efforts!
I started off treating all of my airsoft replicas the same as real firearms: I quickly learned that was untenable, based on logistics alone (I still own about 10 airsoft long-guns, and well over double that amount of replica pistols).
So, my rule now is that anything that's locked is real.
Anything that is not locked is a replica.
Anna (my daughter) is to treat ANY "firearm" as if it is real, the only person allowed to distinguish between airsoft and real-steel is me, or another adult.
My daughter is yet too young (now 5 and 1/2) to handle any of these items safely, by herself. My current rule with her is that she can handle them only in my direct presence. I left out a cleared airsoft once, as a test for her. It was placed in an area where we do not normally play, but is still within her realm of being able to go and play, by herself. She came and got me, to show me what she'd found, and the tell that I left on the replica was undisturbed. Even with this knowledge, as well as knowing that she can positively understand and identify how the chamber is cleared and safety assessed, I currently still keep her completely off-limits and the firearms locked (all airsoft are unloaded, with BB's physically off-limits to her). She just cannot understand, yet.
One thing to remember is not to take the airsoft replicas too lightly - I have seen even factory, unmodified, airsoft BB shots chip teeth and lacerate nostrils, lips, and ears. In target-shooting, simply being sure that your child keeps her mouth closed and that she wears some form of "wrap-around" eye-protection should more than suffice, but for anyone engaging in Force-on-Force with airsoft, I highly recommend eye-cup area "sealing" goggles: typical of paintball protective equipment, including the face/ear shields. I've been involved in airsoft since 1999, and I've seen these injuries first-hand. I've even seen the aftermath, again first-hand, of a BB literally "sneaking in" the small openings at the perimeter of shooting-glasses' frames/lenses, and hitting the eye of the individual with enough force to literally bring a grown man down to his knees.
June 5th, 2011 12:36 AM
Here's a video of my daughter shooting the airsoft gun, doing pretty well.
And here's my wife firing the Walther PPK replica.
Yes - I have personal experience in this area. Years ago I used to play airsoft wars with my church group. One of the younger kids, around 11 years old at the time stuck the gun right in my face and laughed. I told him that was not funny or safe. Then he said "Its okay, it is not loaded." Then pulled the trigger and found out he was wrong. I had blood dripping down from the center of my forehead onto my nose. After I cleaned it up and put a band-aid on my head, I made it a point to explain to the kid what the result of his joke would have been if he had been holding a real gun.
One thing to remember is not to take the airsoft replicas too lightly - I have seen even factory, unmodified, airsoft BB shots chip teeth and lacerate nostrils, lips, and ears.
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