The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped - Page 2

The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped

This is a discussion on The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; the glock is the easier choice: you put down $549, chose small, med or large and a caliber. nite sights? add 10%. the 1911 for ...

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 82
Like Tree17Likes

Thread: The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    ct
    Posts
    1,975
    the glock is the easier choice: you put down $549, chose small, med or large and a caliber. nite sights? add 10%.

    the 1911 for a similar degree of reliability will cost more, but still under $1000.
    i would suggest the 1911 for the knowledgeable shooter--one who want to practice often

    but years down the road, the 1911 may get handed down where as the glock got traded.
    yet one must acknowledge that the glock out of the box is reliable, accurate and affordable.
    Arthritis sucks big-big
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them


  2. #17
    VIP Member
    Array C hawk Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    W. Washington
    Posts
    3,552
    I equate 1911's to wine. Once you get past 100-150 dollar bottle my palette is not sophisticated enough to tell the difference. I think 1911's are a bit the same way, once you go past about 1,500 it's all about throwing money away with regards to reliability. A 3,000 dollar 1911 just has some of the nice finishing touches that others don't.
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  3. #18
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,914
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Not anymore. With the advance in manufacturing techniques that we have seen in the last 30 or so years, what used to be a rather large gap has become slim to non existant.
    That's what I want to think. Although after seeing the internals of a S&W 'E' series and the SA TRP, I wonder where we have come.

    What I really want to think after seeing the internals of a Kimber and what a fine job they did, is that this excellent work also reflects the MIM quality as well, but I think only time can prove that. In that regard, remember when Glocks were first introduced and all the flack about plastic guns? Well Glocks more than proved themselves over time. I'm hoping Kimber's MIM will to.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    ...I have seen several high dollar guns that were supposed to be the cream of the crop be plaqued with the same issues that a 400 piece may have.
    Interesting you should say that. I just recently read a post where a guy had a MIM part fail and replaced it with a WC part. The WC part failed in the exact same way and didn't last as long.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    ...Also, there are some instances where a plastic part may outperform the same part made of steel. If you look at the Glock, as far as precision goes, its pretty mickey mouse in comparison to a highly machined, hand fitted custom handgun, but not many can deny that mickey mouse stuff that is almost silly to look at dosent perform as it is supposed to. Also, that Glock will perform in conditions that would have the precision gun trying to slink back into its gun case to hide.
    True. The only exception is the last statement. I recently read a post from a guy in the middle east whose unit was issed Glocks, I forget which model, but they were more than problematic. Can't say that 1911 would fair any better, but the platform has certainly been through adverse conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    ...The one thing that the high dollar stuff does do is give you bragging rights and and its great to start a conversation with.
    LOL are we supposed to say stuff like that out loud?

    When I was building 1911s, I used pretty much only tool steel parts - the absolute best as it were - kinda like you're saying - bragging material. Now, I'm not so sure what one really gains from tool steel parts - hence this thread. If MIM and carbon steel parts are well within their working limits, etc. does doubling that margin buy anything? I think not.

    It would be alarming to think that manufacturers are running internals so close to the edge of their limits that they will inevitably fail and by the same concern that the 1911 requires tool steel strength parts to be as reliable as plastic and stamped metal parts.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  4. #19
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,914
    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    I equate 1911's to wine. Once you get past 100-150 dollar bottle my palette is not sophisticated enough to tell the difference. I think 1911's are a bit the same way, once you go past about 1,500 it's all about throwing money away with regards to reliability. A 3,000 dollar 1911 just has some of the nice finishing touches that others don't.
    Kind of the same thing I was saying in response to Hotguns. Although, what finishing touches could justify nearly $2000? E.g., and you guys are gonna hate me for continuing to tout Kimber, but, my $1089 Tactical Pro has an AL frame (whole thing weighs 28 oz), checkered front strap, mag chute, ambi safety, match grade barrel, night sights, has custom grips, and is as accurate as I can shoot.

    The internals are finished down to the smallest detail, and here's a pic that shows how well the disconnector is finished. This pic is marginally in focus, one of the few I made of the Kimber parts that were in focus. Notice the flat, smooth surface, completely void of seams, etc. Also notice how rounded the edges and corners are.


    disconnector spring side by ron.0000, on Flickr

    Well, ok, one more Kimber detail - done by Kimber to be clear - notice the bevel at the breech face. This is the way it's supposed to be done. This was completely absent in my S&W 'E' series and SA TRP.


    slide - disconnector run by ron.0000, on Flickr

    What would $2000 more dollars buy?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  5. #20
    Moderator
    Array bmcgilvray's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,503
    "What would $2000 more dollars buy"

    Pride of ownership more than anything else. In my view one is kidding himself that the 1911 can only be dependable enough to be relied on to defend his life if it costs more than "X" dollars. One can get to know a good ol' Rock Island 1911 and unerringly depend on it without being considered foolhardy.

    If it fills a person up to own "trick" 1911s then great. Just don't delude oneself that it is essential.

    The farther the 1911 clone strays from original U.S. military contract models the more I raise an eyebrow at it. When an owner of such a gun begins preaching about the goodies and their necessity I mentally tune them out.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  6. #21
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    somewhere
    Posts
    1,726
    It isn't about reliability.

    An $18k Hyundai these days is more reliable than a $250k Rolls Royce. But people still buy the RR. Why? Multiple reasons. The name, the fit and finish, the customer service, the features, the materials used, the attention to detail, the customization options, etc.

    Or, consider a Toyota Camry vs. a Ferrari 458. Both will take you from point A to B and back, but one costs a LOT more. Why? What are you getting with the extra money? Ultimately, much is subjective, because a Corvette ZR1 can do most of the same things much more cheaply, but you won't get the Ferrari name, sound, and material and assembly quality. It all ultimately comes down to how much you care about such things. If I was in that position, I could certainly appreciate the F458, but I would buy the ZR1 (assuming I was rich, anyway).

  7. #22
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,914
    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    "What would $2000 more dollars buy"

    Pride of ownership more than anything else. In my view one is kidding himself that the 1911 can only be dependable enough to be relied on to defend his life if it costs more than "X" dollars. One can get to know a good ol' Rock Island 1911 and unerringly depend on it without being considered foolhardy.
    I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but I guess the question that comes to mind is, how do we know? i.e. confirm what we think about a gun? Is it by the number of rounds without a failure we've shot through it?

    I know if it's a Glock, we can go by history, i.e. its widespread use and success - essentially reputation.

    But what do we go by on say a Rock Island?

    Again, not disagreeing at all, just wondering how we gain confidence in a particular platform or brand???
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,045

    Cool

    More History.
    The Colt Model 1911 was the product of a very capable person, namely John Moses Browning, father of several modern firearms.

    The pistol was designed to comply with the requirements of the U.S. Army, which, during its campaign against the Moros in Philippines, had seen its trusty .38 revolver to be incapable of stopping attackers. An Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thompson (inventor of the Thompson sub-machine-gun) and Col. Louis A. La Garde, had reached the conclusion that the army needed a .45" caliber cartridge, to provide adequate stopping power. In the mean time, J. Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar to contemporary .38 Super (dimension-wise). When the Army announced its interest in a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this handgun to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design (with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet), and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation.

    In the selection process, which started at 1906 with firearms submitted by Colt, Luger, Savage, Knoble, Bergmann, White-Merrill and Smith & Wesson, Browning's design was selected, together with the Savage design in 1907. However, the U.S. Army pressed for some service tests, which revealed that neither pistol (Colt's or Savage's) had reached the desired perfection. The Ordnance Department instituted a series of further tests and experiments, which eventually resulted in the appointment of a selection committee, in 1911.

    Browning was determined to prove the superiority of his handgun, so he went to Hartford to personally supervise the production of the gun. There he met Fred Moore, a young Colt employee with whom he worked in close cooperation trying to make sure that each part that was produced for the test guns was simply the best possible. The guns produced were submitted again for evaluation, to the committee. A torture test was conducted, on March 3rd, 1911. The test consisted of having each gun fire 6000 rounds. One hundred shots would be fired and the pistol would be allowed to cool for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled. After firing those 6000 rounds, the pistol would be tested with deformed cartridges, some seated too deeply, some not seated enough, etc. The gun would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and some more tests would then be conducted.

    Browning's pistols passed the whole test series with flying colors. It was the first firearm to undergo such a test, firing continuously 6000 cartridges, a record broken only in 1917 when Browning's recoil-operated machine gun fired a 40000 rounds test.

    The report of the evaluation committee (taken from 'The .45 Automatic, An American Rifleman Reprint', published by the National Rifle Association of America) released on the 20th of March 1911 stated :


    "Of the two pistols, the board was of the opinion
    that the Colt is superior, because it is more
    reliable, more enduring, more easily disassembled
    when there are broken parts to be replaced, and
    more accurate."


    On March 29th, 1911, the Browning-designed, Colt-produced .45 Automatic pistol, was selected as the official sidearm of the Armed Forces of U.S.A., and named Model 1911.
    NRA PATRON LIFE
    BROWN WATER NAVY

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    9,505
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but I guess the question that comes to mind is, how do we know? i.e. confirm what we think about a gun? Is it by the number of rounds without a failure we've shot through it?

    I know if it's a Glock, we can go by history, i.e. its widespread use and success - essentially reputation.

    But what do we go by on say a Rock Island?

    Again, not disagreeing at all, just wondering how we gain confidence in a particular platform or brand???
    Yep, we can go by history. Before the Brady Bill, hi cap Glocks and other designs were about to put the 1911 to sleep. But after the cap limit, the 1911 saw a resurgance, which made sense. 10 9mm, or 8 45acp? The answers is not to hard, especially with the thinner 1911 profile against a gun designed by hi capacity.
    But, looking again at history, the newcomer Glock, offered the shooter something they had never experienced; almost infallable dependability and extreme durability in a lightweight package that was impervious to sweat, dirt, and the elements, at a cheap price.
    The historic and romance associated with the 1911, especially by the older generation of shooters, and the great marketing thru gun rags telling shooters they must have this historic 45acp, has fueled a frenzy of buyers who are subceptable to this marketing.

    And whos to blame anyone for wanting a 1911? They are great guns, with a rich history, and fun to tinker with and shoot.
    Unfortunately, the 1911 is a design thats time is passing as a reasonable choice for EDC by most folks. This is due in part to several things.
    One, is the weight for capacity ratio. A second reason I believe this to be so is because of the reputation that its got to be a $3000 gun to be reliable, which leads us to number three.

    Many new shooters, some from the service post 1985, and civillian shooters, are exposed to more things with more choices today than ever before. This new generation of service member has shot or qualified with the m9, and has experienced nothing but positive things from it, and will more than likely choose something similar as a personal weapon. Additionally, most folks today that are not orientated or biased to the 1911, are finding guns like Glocks to be cheaper, easier to maintain and carry,and higher capacity than the 1911.
    With all the bad things one might say about the "newer generation", I believe in some aspects they are more frugal, want the best bang for the dollar, and do not want to become part time gunsmiths to keep a 1911 running. And if they do go 1911, it will be something within their budget with a low risk investment.

    Sorry to go on and on and slightly off topic, but your question made me think about this. I believe alot of people feel as I do, I dont have the luxury or patience anymore to have to pay hard earned money for something and then fix it. The damn thing better be right. And its not just about the money, but confidence in the product; I am litterally betting my life.

    So, I dont know what the issue is with the 1911. I understand the appeal. I have owned a truck load of them, and some in the 2700 dollar range. But for some reason or other, they all eventually had an issue. I struggled with myself for a long time, wanting to dedicate to the 1911 platform, and hate the Glock.
    But, I finally resigned myself to the fact that I was not going to find a better balance of total reliability, capacity, caliber, and weight as the Glock.
    I know of no 1911 I could have worn in the surf at the ocean last year for over a week, that would have not been a rusted heap of junk.

    I believe the 1911 was a great design 100 years ago, and still is today. But, I believe there are other designs that beat it in many areas that are critical to reliable performance.
    Not meant to offend anyone, just putting my thoughts down and leaving my emotions out of it.

    Sorry for the rambling, but to answer the question can the 1911 be as dependable as a Glock, my opinion is no, it can not. I believe it has alot to do with dated design. Can a 57 Chevy be as dependable as a modern day Honda Accord? I believe for both answers to be yes, there would have to be some major design changes in both the latter to the point of neither the 1911 or the 57 Chevy being what they currently are.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #25
    Moderator
    Array bmcgilvray's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,503
    "...just wondering how we gain confidence in a particular platform or brand?"


    Owning it and shooting it. My son tried a Rock Island a few years back and it's working out great. A nice reliable "bang" with each trigger pull and no hassles for the operator. What could be simpler? Can't say yet whether it will hold up for the long haul as my son is currently a Marine, grousing that he can't bring his .45 along rather than the issued M9. The Rock Island hasn't seen much use in the past couple of years though he ran a lot of ammo through it before he enlisted.

    The 1911 as is defined in my mind is not the temperamental pistol that so many claim. I have no particular knowledge of the many current 1911 makers and don't really care about their relative reputations for reliability. I'm keeping an eye out for a good deal on a Colt Government Model, Series 70 or older. It has to be original and unfooled with and it will stay that way once I get it. I will not be adding one single accessory or after-market giz-wichet. Only standard springs as required through use. This is the best way to do 1911 in my view; keep it simple. Kept clean and lubed, I can say in advance that I'll trust the platform to deliver the goods thousands of times over.

    I may even find a good one this weekend as I'm going to a small regional gun show.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,887
    I carry a G29 from time to time, and it's reliable and fun to shoot. However, my first handgun was a 1911 and it's my favorite platform.

    I had a dream gun in my head a few months ago. An officers size 1911 in 10mm. No one made one (production). I found Fusion Firearms. After talking with Bob Serva I decided to go with the CCO (officer frame with commander slide) in said 10mm. They do make the officer in 10mm but I didn't want to put up with reliability issues with hot loads (his advice). I then wanted certain features: beveled bushing, flush crown barrel, chain link front strap and MSH, fancy serrations on top of slide, round but frame and mag well, polished slide sides, French border and press checks. I got it all in the platform I wanted, AND the two tone look I wanted (matte black Ion DLC finish with stainless small parts, hammer, trigger, MSH). Well north of $2,000. But it's what I wanted in the perfect carry piece for ME. doesn't mean it will be more reliable or shoot better, but from what i have read, it will be.

    So for me, it's my dream design and platform, and not a pride, reliability or any other issue. Especially when compared to my Glock. I have many other guns that can be reliable, but this will be the first of what I fell will be my PERFECT CCW's.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array Dragman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Vandergrift PA
    Posts
    1,275
    I love my 1911's! I have a "few" and I do have some $2000+ 1911's I am 100% comfortable carrying them. This said if I was "marching into battle" I would take my Glocks. I shoot them well and in the rain, mud and muck I just couldn't feel safer with anything else.
    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,887
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragman View Post
    I love my 1911's! I have a "few" and I do have some $2000+ 1911's I am 100% comfortable carrying them. This said if I was "marching into battle" I would take my Glocks. I shoot them well and in the rain, mud and muck I just couldn't feel safer with anything else.
    And for many, there is your answer.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  14. #29
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,914
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Yep, we can go by history. Before the Brady Bill, hi cap Glocks and other designs were about to put the 1911 to sleep.
    I disagree. Sales of the 1911 may have slowed as did other makes of guns. But there are more choices in sizes and types of guns today than ever before and much higher capacities than the 1911 and yet, the 1911 flourishes and is produced by more manufacturers by leaps and bounds than any other gun. Kimber alone sold 80,000 1911s in 2009.

    Not only that, seems like hardly a month goes by that some manufacturer doesn't jump on the 1911 wagon OR one or more 1911 manufacturers offer a new size, model, something new. They sell, and they sell like hot cakes.

    You can hardly pick up a gun magazine that doesn't have a 1911 on the cover, and if not on the cover then a prominent article or two about them. Why? Because the 1911 sells magazines.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ...One, is the weight for capacity ratio.
    My four inch Kimber weighs 28 ozs - that's the very same or maybe a little less than a Sig 229.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ... A second reason I believe this to be so is because of the reputation that its got to be a $3000 gun to be reliable,
    I can certainly see that's true. I just posted on the SA 1911 forum about my extractor breaking. The second reply was that the guy replaced his extractor with a WC bullet proof extractor and keeps the stock one for a spare. I did ask why that was necessary on a $1400 gun. I should have asked what else should be replaced with a bullet proof part. But that's that same mentality. I notice, as I'm sure you have, there seems to be a lot of people that like 1911s but believe unless they have bullet proof internals they can't be reliable. If that's really true, and I don't think it is at all, I think that speaks volumes and speaks them loudly about the deficiency of a platform that demands such parts to be as reliable, make that approach the reliability of a plastic and stamped metal Glock.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ...Sorry to go on and on and slightly off topic, but your question made me think about this.
    No need to apologize at all; that was one purpose of starting this thread, to make us think and discuss these very issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ... I believe alot of people feel as I do
    And a lot don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ..., I dont have the luxury or patience anymore to have to pay hard earned money for something and then fix it. The damn thing better be right. And its not just about the money, but confidence in the product; I am litterally betting my life.
    Right on brother! And I'll add this. If the only 1911s we can depend on cost over $2000 and must have high precision, special metals, and hand fitting to work as reliably as a Glock then something is amiss in the platform design and I don't care who designed it - it's still flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ...But, I finally resigned myself to the fact that I was not going to find a better balance of total reliability, capacity, caliber, and weight as the Glock.
    Hard to beat a Glock no matter what a gun may cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ...I know of no 1911 I could have worn in the surf at the ocean last year for over a week, that would have not been a rusted heap of junk.
    I'm not so sure about that. If the 1911 has a good finish, what's going to rust? I don't believe the internals of a Glock, including the bore of the barrel is any better protected than the internals of a 1911.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ...I believe the 1911 was a great design 100 years ago, and still is today. But, I believe there are other designs that beat it in many areas that are critical to reliable performance.
    Not meant to offend anyone, just putting my thoughts down and leaving my emotions out of it.
    I can't disagree. But that's rather a side issue, albeit a significant one. One does need reliability number one!

    I don't know that we could really prove that other designs beat the 1911 in reliability without having some statistical sized data to support that. But, I think what you're saying and I tend to agree, that gut feeling what you said is true to some degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    ...Sorry for the rambling, but to answer the question can the 1911 be as dependable as a Glock, my opinion is no, it can not. I believe it has alot to do with dated design. Can a 57 Chevy be as dependable as a modern day Honda Accord? I believe for both answers to be yes, there would have to be some major design changes in both the latter to the point of neither the 1911 or the 57 Chevy being what they currently are.
    But there have been changes all along to the 1911 to make it more reliable. JMB fans don't like to hear this, but we actually know more about the 1911 today, than JMB ever did. I know that's a bold claim, but think of all the experience we've had with the 1911 and the materials and machining that are available that weren't in JMBs day.

    And improvements have beem made all along. BTW, Glock is no spring chicken any more itself you know.

    To me, the biggest shortcoming of Glock, is they don't have a good size in .45ACP. I know the G30 - too small. I'm talking about a single stack Glock nearly as thin as a 1911 and similarly sized. The G21 is a monster and I like it - it's just too big and the mags are too big to manipulate surely.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  15. #30
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,914
    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    And for many, there is your answer.
    That's really not an answer - it's an opinion. Have we forgotten how many troops marched into battle with 1911s and carried them through the sand, mud, water, filth, muck, and blood? When you talk to one of those guys, you get a much different opinion.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

1911 breech face
,
1911 disconnector polish
,

1911 disconnector rail bevel

,
1911 swartz safety
,
1911 trigger bow
,

kimber breech face

,
kimber slide
,

swartz safety

,

tool steel 1911

,

tool steel 1911 parts

,
tool steel in firearms
,
usp breech face
Click on a term to search for related topics.