The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped

This is a discussion on The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by deadguy And for many, there is your answer. Yep and the crazy thing is that It isn't that the 1911 wont I ...

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Thread: The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array Dragman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    And for many, there is your answer.
    Yep
    and the crazy thing is that It isn't that the 1911 wont I just can't bring myself to do some of the testing to them as I have done my glocks. I couldn't imagine taking one of my children I mean 1911's and throwing it in a mud puddle then throwning it in a sand box then test firing it just to see what happens and I have done that with a glock.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    That's really not an answer - it's an opinion. Have we forgotten how many troops marched into battle with 1911s and carried them through the sand, mud, water, filth, muck, and blood? When you talk to one of those guys, you get a much different opinion.
    I'm on your side my friend with the 1911. That post was justifying what many many Glock-aide drinkers say.
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    That's really not an answer - it's an opinion. Have we forgotten how many troops marched into battle with 1911s and carried them through the sand, mud, water, filth, muck, and blood? When you talk to one of those guys, you get a much different opinion.
    I have talked to many many of those guys and while 75% of them are 1911 die hards a good 25% that I know hate the gun and say they are junk and would never own another. It is all subjective to what they have been exsposed too IMHO.
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  5. #34
    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    This is my favorite type of thread, one that has absolutely no good answer. For myself, i compared a Glock 36 and a Colt Defender back to back on the range before I bought. As for accuracy, no real difference, both shot extremely well. So it came down to feel. The Colt felt right, felt good in my hand, and the Glock didn't. I thought the Colt Defender was probably more concealable due to the 1911 thinness, but I am splitting hairs. I now have over 1,000 rounds out of the Defender with no problems. Would the Glock do as well? Probably. Did I pay $3000? No. It was about $800. Moral of the story? Shoot both a 1911 and a comparable Glock, back to back at the same time. My bet is that you will have no doubt which one you prefer as a shooter, be it either the Glock or the 1911.
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    The point is, what does it really take to make a 1911 reliable and does tool steel parts make them more reliable? Is a $3000 1911 more reliable than a $500 1911?
    When the 1911 was designed skilled labor and hand fitting were cheep and pride of craftsmanship was high, most of today's 1911's have been been built to a price point using altered parts specs, and utilizing assembly line construction with little to no hand fitting and NO pride of craftsmanship.

    A hand built semi custom 1911 from the likes 0f Baer, Brown, Wilson etc ......... who use high quality parts and take pride in their craftsmanship produce 1911's built like 1911's are supposed to be built, and as such they aren't cheep.

    The average American hand gunner is going to put 50-100 rounds through their gun in a year and never invest in any self defense training, the firearms industry knows this and build their guns to appeal to this market.

    A correctly built 1911 is a high maintenance, high performance hand gun that requires a lot of dedication and system knowledge from it's operator. Anyone not willing to invest the time and money to keep the 1911 running is better off with a Glock.

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  7. #36
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    As noted above by you, the 1911 is selling like hotcakes, but I believe it is more due to historic and hype propagated by the gun media, who are probably getting a little palm greasing by the Gun smiths Guild. That and the fact that they are "the American Icon" gun.

    Your Kimber may be a lightweight, but its still heavier than a g26, or 19, or 23, and only holds what, 7 or 8 rounds. Once again, weight to capacity ratio.

    I would love to see anyone here, anyone, take their 1911 into the ocean surf for an entire week, no rinsing off, no lubing, only air dry, and compare that to a Glock treated the same way. Not one spring, or piece of metal, coated with oxide or not rusted. The barrel was absolutely free of rust. None anywhere, nodda, zilch.
    And the best part is that protection, called a Tennifer treatment, which is a part of the steel and metal on every Glock that leaves the factory, is included with the price.

    If they companies already are charging over 1000 bucks for an over the counter 1911, can you imagine what they would charge to make them as rust free as the Glock? That would probably put them at about $10,000?
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    When the 1911 was designed skilled labor and hand fitting were cheep and pride of craftsmanship was high, most of today's 1911's have been been built to a price point using altered parts specs, and utilizing assembly line construction with little to no hand fitting and NO pride of craftsmanship.
    I agree with a lot of that, but when I look at the internals of my Kimbers, I have to totally disagree with no pride of craftsmanship. There are all kinds of things done that show thoroughness, attention to detail and very nicely finished and fit parts. Kimber does use MIM parts, but the quality of MIM is contraverial, not decided. Kimber seems to be doing well with MIM.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    ...A hand built semi custom 1911 from the likes 0f Baer, Brown, Wilson etc ......... who use high quality parts and take pride in their craftsmanship produce 1911's built like 1911's are supposed to be built, and as such they aren't cheep.
    So then you do believe that 1911 has to be hand built and semi custom with tool steel parts by people that take pride in their craftsmanship to build a very expensive 1911 that's as reliable as a plastic and stamped metal Glock?

    See that's the thing people are either missing or don't want to admit. I think they get so hung up on the genius of JMB that they can't see that a gun has to be built as you described, just to be as reliable as a Glock, is a serious platform design issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    ...The average American hand gunner is going to put 50-100 rounds through their gun in a year and never invest in any self defense training, the firearms industry knows this and build their guns to appeal to this market.
    I see 1911s go through training classes and fire 1000 rounds without problems. I could give you a name of a guy that rents Kimbers in gunshop and has seen thousands and thousands of rounds go through them and he's sold on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    ...A correctly built 1911 is a high maintenance, high performance hand gun that requires a lot of dedication and system knowledge from it's operator.
    That wasn't true in four wars the 1911 went through. I do no more to my 1911s than I do to my Glocks. If I had to treat my 1911s they way you claim, I wouldn't have one at any price.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    ...Anyone not willing to invest the time and money to keep the 1911 running is better off with a Glock.
    It's beginning to sound like they'd be better off with a Glock period if the 1911 is so finicky and tempormental.

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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ...Your Kimber may be a lightweight, but its still heavier than a g26, or 19, or 23, and only holds what, 7 or 8 rounds. Once again, weight to capacity ratio.
    Sure, 28 oz is heavier than a Glock, I didn't say otherwise. But what I was saying, if one wants to carry a 1911, then weight doesn't have to be an issue. I can tell a huge difference in carrying a government model 1911 and my AL Kimber. I can't tell so much difference between the Kimber and a G17. It seems like a threshold effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    ...I would love to see anyone here, anyone, take their 1911 into the ocean surf for an entire week, no rinsing off, no lubing, only air dry, and compare that to a Glock treated the same way. Not one spring, or piece of metal, coated with oxide or not rusted. The barrel was absolutely free of rust. None anywhere, nodda, zilch.
    And the best part is that protection, called a Tennifer treatment, which is a part of the steel and metal on every Glock that leaves the factory, is included with the price.
    Well first, I think you're assuming. You might be quite surprised what modern lubricants can do to prevent rust - more on that in a minute.

    Are you absolutely sure every internal part is Tennifer treated? I mean you're not assuming, you know for sure? I don't know, I'm asking.

    But, you could say the very same thing between a Glock and a Sig, an H&K, whatever, so the 1911 is not alone in that respect and a Sig and H&K both cost more than my Kimber Pro Carry.

    Back to the lube thing. I have seen specs, I wish I could lay my hands on them but I can't, that specify how long a particular gun lubricate will resist a forced salt spray directed onto the surface. It's amazing. That's why I wonder if you really know that 1911 couldn't do that.

    Then again, why would anyone want to take a gun in the salt surf if they didn't want to? Did you check your mag springs? Are they Tennifer treated too?

    ...If they companies already are charging over 1000 bucks for an over the counter 1911, can you imagine what they would charge to make them as rust free as the Glock? That would probably put them at about $10,000?
    Oh, I think companies do have that good of protection on certain models, and there's stainless steel too. And Birdsong treats guns with a finish for a very reasonable price, so does Robar. It's and added expense yes, but nonetheless shows manufacturers can add those treatmens at a very reasonable price.

    I had one of my 1911s I built hard chromed and every part in it for about $150. I'll put it in the surf with your Glock. What am I saying, I wouldn't put one of my Glocks in the surf on purpose.
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  10. #39
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    Anyone out there want to subject their 1911 to a little abuse to see just how well they really hold up under bad conditions? I realize this has no real bearing in the real world, but I would be curious to see how a 1000 dollar gun holds up to salt compared to my $399.00 G26. I have already ruined a S&W MP that a friend put up to the challenge.

    I just think its interesting to see what we really get for the money. Hey, if its a war gun, it ought to be able to really be put to the test.

    I just read your post, lol. I will gladly put it in the surf. Ive already done it. I am pretty sure all parts are Tennifer treated, not coated. The Tennifer is actually part of the steel composition.

    Now as far as lubes go, just wipe it dry of all lubricants, and dump it in there. Salt eats away most lubes anyway, especially after extended periods of time.

    Why not put it to a little test? Thats the best way to find out what its made of, lol.

    My mag spring is still working fine, although I did have a lot of fine sand and dryed salt in the mag, but, no rust. All for under 430 bucks.
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    Cool

    Hey Glockman you can use my G-36 for the salt trials.

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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    Hey Glockman you can use my G-36 for the salt trials.

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    Im sure. But with the EXO coating and the Tennifer under it, that thing will last forever in corrosive acid!
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    I think some of our special ops men has and are doing the war test.I carried one in 67-68 during the raining season and in sand and saltwater and it work. I have one 1911 with about 129,000 by my log book. It's on it's third barrel.It was shot in action shooting, but it works.I carry one every day.Yes, I have seen 1911's blow and also Glocks blowup also seen both jam.I even seen S&W'S six-shooters jam.But point is most of the time it's the shooter that cause it.There is no such thing as a perfect weapon.
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Anyone out there want to subject their 1911 to a little abuse to see just how well they really hold up under bad conditions? I realize this has no real bearing in the real world, but I would be curious to see how a 1000 dollar gun holds up to salt compared to my $399.00 G26. I have already ruined a S&W MP that a friend put up to the challenge.
    Maybe we should start another thread for this challenge, esp. since it has nothing to do with the focus of the thread. Plus, this would include not just Glocks and 1911s, but Sigs, H&Ks, etc. which again cost more than my Kimber Pro Carry.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ...I am pretty sure all parts are Tennifer treated, not coated. The Tennifer is actually part of the steel composition.
    Sorry, did a 'coated' sneak in there on me?

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ...Now as far as lubes go, just wipe it dry of all lubricants, and dump it in there. Salt eats away most lubes anyway, especially after extended periods of time.
    The purpose of the lube is to protect the parts in salt water environments. Of course if you remove all the lubricant it won't be protected.

    Did you read the part where the lubes are subjected to a salt spray at an elevated temperature for extended periods of times and no rust developed?

    And most of us can't get a Glock for anywhere near $430 unless we buy a used one. But then if we buy any gun used the price will be less.

    Again, there's a lot to like about Glocks, but that can also be said for many guns.
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  15. #44
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    "So either tool steel is needed for reliability and longevity in a 1911 or it is not.
    If it is not, why do manufacturers advertise tool steel parts in their 1911s and charge so much money for them?"


    I think a big part of this is that the "machined from bar-stock - hardened, tempered, Cryo Treated Tool Steel" parts are somewhat overkill.
    That is to say that a Very Reliable 1911 CAN be had with standard COLT factory parts and Genuine GI Surplus parts.

    Part of the problem is that there is one manufacturer making GLOCKS & that is GLOCK.

    There have been at least FIFTY past & present makers out there making 1911 pattern pistols with "parts" of varying quality.
    Also there are SO MANY aftermarket 1911 parts makers out there and all of their part tolerances & specs differ slightly.
    Thus...the necessary hand fitting.

    Historically, at the COLT factory there ALSO were slight differences and variances "part to part" BUT, the COLT Factory Assemblers had a HUGE advantage.

    They had 100 of each part sitting right there and if say...a mag release did not quite fit right....they had 99 others "right there" to choose from.

    SO that really cut down on the "hand fitting" and it was often more like "keep swapping" until you found the "drop in" part...of the many....that perfectly dropped in.

    Of course "some" hand fitting on some parts was usually necessary.

    So...I think that we can all agree that some of the super duper ultra high quality (expensive) parts are overkill with regard to the quality necessary for durable & flawless functioning.

    That fact does not change the fact that some other Gun Maker installed parts are "underkill" as in possibly inferior for their intended function.

    TRUTHFULLY if a person could locate a supplier of "known origin" Government Issue Military Surplus 1911 parts....you could build a super reliable Colt 1911 from those parts. And...a whole lot cheaper.

    Some of THE BEST 1911 magazines that I have are MIL Surplus "Assy Mags" ~ and back then I must have bought 50 of them for $4.00 each. I wish that I had 50 more.

    There is a problem though...availability of those Genuine GI parts has either totally dried up...or sellers are claiming their parts are Genuine GI but, in reality they are Chinese or "maker unknown" parts of questionable quality.

    So.........that has caused the aftermarket 1911 uber-quality high dollar parts boom & being that this is America & Americans LOVE to spend money on their favorite "toys" it has become a really huge business.

    I should add that COLT factory barrels are (in reality) great accurate barrels. So WHY do so many shooters take out a perfectly good factory barrel and replace it with a more aftermarket expensive barrel with accuracy that will always shoot better than they do? - Answer: I have no idea.

    I know that I do it because I happen to like STAINLESS STEEL barrels but, that is the only reason why I do it. But, a properly fit COLT barrel is MORE accurate than I am.

    Guess what though....The 1911 Parts Craze is quickly being overtaken & overshadowed by the AR15 AFTERMARKET PARTS CRAZE & exactly EXACTLY the same thing is happening with the aftermarket $$$$$$ AR parts.

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  16. #45
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    I believe I have painted myself as a 1911 hater, which is really not true. They are a fine gun, and like I said, who doesnt like them? But perhaps more to the point of your thread, I believe there are design differences that account for better reliabilty of the two. The 1911 has more slide/rail contact which provides more friction and requires more lube. Another thing about the 1911, is the condition 1 carry exposes the firing pin and hammer internals to debris and lint from clothing. Although I never had an issue with this while I carried a 1911, it always was a concern.
    Then theres the barrel link of the 1911, which many acknowledge is the weakest part of the design, insomuch, that linkless designs have been experimented with for quite some time. However, I never had a problem with that either.

    Any design can be nit picked, but the thing that confounds me is what is there about the 1911 that justifys a big price when so many other pistols which argueably are more inherently reliable cost so much less?
    None the less, I am still going to aquire that bone stock 70 series Colt. It wont be for serious carry, but just because I like it.
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