The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped - Page 4

The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped

This is a discussion on The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; WOW...I'll also add that standard Colt factory parts are available and are somewhat cheaper. But, COLT is not giving those away these days either. So ...

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 82
Like Tree17Likes

Thread: The precision tool steel 1911 vs plastic and stamped

  1. #46
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    35,749
    WOW...I'll also add that standard Colt factory parts are available and are somewhat cheaper.
    But, COLT is not giving those away these days either.

    So I guess folks building a 1911 say: "OK...do I buy the Colt Factory replacement part for $17.50 or should I go for the super~duper tool steel for $35.00" & being as Americans always seem to "opt" for the "biggest & the best" they kick out the extra bucks for the "BEST" part.

    It's the same thing with nearly everything in the U.S.A. - everybody has to have the latest digital most "mega pixel" camera right up until the next "Even More Mega Pixel" camera hits the shelves and then the camera that WAS the greatest...a few months earlier....nobody wants anymore.

    Such is life in these United States.
    OD* likes this.


  2. #47
    Senior Member
    Array Armydad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    553
    Hey Tangle. You made me open up my Springer parkerized Loaded edition and compare the slide and other parts. Your TRP was short changed. I have an 800.00 1911 that has beveled edges etc. I have not taken it all the way down as I am not that confident but with the grip panels off everything looks pretty smooth and finished. I guess I got a more refined Springer for a little more than half of what you spent.

  3. #48
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,551
    Anyone out there want to subject their 1911 to a little abuse to see just how well they really hold up under bad conditions? I realize this has no real bearing in the real world, but I would be curious to see how a 1000 dollar gun holds up to salt compared to my $399.00 G26. I have already ruined a S&W MP that a friend put up to the challenge.
    The FBI's Springfield Professional finished with the late Walter Birdsong's "Black-T" has meant the challenge already. Black-T has a salt spray resistance, 4,000+ hours (according to ASTM 117).
    C hawk Glock likes this.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,256
    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    WOW...I'll also add that standard Colt factory parts are available and are somewhat cheaper.
    But, COLT is not giving those away these days either.

    So I guess folks building a 1911 say: "OK...do I buy the Colt Factory replacement part for $17.50 or should I go for the super~duper tool steel for $35.00" & being as Americans always seem to "opt" for the "biggest & the best" they kick out the extra bucks for the "BEST" part.

    It's the same thing with nearly everything in the U.S.A. - everybody has to have the latest digital most "mega pixel" camera right up until the next "Even More Mega Pixel" camera hits the shelves and then the camera that WAS the greatest...a few months earlier....nobody wants anymore.

    Such is life in these United States.
    Nope.

    My TV is 20 years old. My cell phone is just that - a phone. No "Smart" phone here.

    Back to the topic at hand...

    I don't mean to be flippant, but I need to ask...objectively, other than the subjective "trigger feel" or "feel" of the grip, or the grip "angle," does a 1911 design do anything better than a Glock for defensive purposes? Or is it really all just subjective preference? I ask because I have fired 1911s, and frankly, I don't get all the fuss.

    I used to belong to a local gun club, and we had an informal competition - timed steel plates. I was new to the club, and some of the old timers had me shoot their 1911s - they were very vocal in claiming the 1911's superiority over my G19. They seemed to have a vested interest in showing me the error of my ways, and took a keen interest in trying to convert me to the Church of JMB. Well, when the dust settled, I smoked all of them with my bone-stock, DAO, plastic fantastic Glock...in 9mm yet! So much for the 1911, the SA trigger, and all of that.

    In the recent low light class I ran with my little LCP, the only gun to go down was...a Kimber 1911. That proves nothing, but it was interesting to see (the shooter didn't complete the 500 round "break in" that Kimber demands).

    To the original topic - yes, I think some of the parts sold out there are "overkill" for sure.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30; Mossberg 500
    CT Lasers

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    9,376
    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    The FBI's Springfield Professional finished with the late Walter Birdsong's "Black-T" has meant the challenge already. Black-T has a salt spray resistance, 4,000+ hours (according to ASTM 117).
    Yes I am familiar with that finish, and the test. But wasnt that finish an additional expense to an already expensive gun? Were are the small internal parts coated with the finish? I cant remember the specifics of it, but did they do an overall test, or just concentrate on how the spray affected the externals.

    I also wonder if the spray solution was matched to the concentration of sea water. If you know the specifics, I would be interested, as I remember reading something about this some time ago, but the details elude me.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  6. #51
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,551
    But wasnt that finish an additional expense to an already expensive gun?
    No, not really, the pistol was spec'd by the FBI, the finish was called for, so it wasn't actually an addition. The small parts are coated (mine is anyway, and they all have to be built to the same spec). I'm sure the answers are here, http://www.udri.udayton.edu/NONSTRUC...SaltSpray.aspx I just don't have the energy to look for them right now.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  7. #52
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Well, at least we may be seeing some convergence. Although, we need to realize there has not been one statistical piece of info to support that MIM was problematic or less reliable than any other part. Even a Wilson Combat rep supports that.

    The problem likely is, that there are so many 1911s out there, and QKShooter mentioned this, of questionable quality that it skews the perception. Wilson even said that; Frank talked about that very thing - one manufacturer did MIM poorly and it made it all look bad.

    I see now there is some give about the tool steel parts. I'd really hate to think tool steel was required to provide suitable performance in a 1911. What ever happend to good ol carbon steel, it can be hardened, then again, MIM is already hardened when done correctly.

    I think we're at the 9mm vs 45 stage. There's really no statistical proof to support anything. What that leaves us with is what we want to believe, what we're willing to believe, and isolated failures and successes of various guns.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  8. #53
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    Hey Tangle. You made me open up my Springer parkerized Loaded edition and compare the slide and other parts. Your TRP was short changed. I have an 800.00 1911 that has beveled edges etc. I have not taken it all the way down as I am not that confident but with the grip panels off everything looks pretty smooth and finished. I guess I got a more refined Springer for a little more than half of what you spent.
    I saw only one issue with my TRP that could be seen without taking it apart. And that was the slide wasn't beveled. The real unfinished parts were the disconnector; the damgae it did to the trigger bow, actually what's called the stirrup, and to a lesser degree the sear legs. Did you look at those in your Springer. It's hard to believe Springer puts their better parts in their less expensive guns and lesser parts in their more expensive guns.

    And it could be I have a later model where SA has started taking short cuts. BTW, Does your Springer have a cast extractor?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  9. #54
    JD
    JD is offline
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    What’s the difference in a new 1911 that costs $500 and one that costs $3000? Before you say precision made, special metals parts, hand fitting, etc. what I mean is, is it reliability? Durability? Dependability? Elitism? Pride?
    Options and finish.
    You will not find a $500 1911 with Wilson's ArmorTuff, hard chrome, Ionbond etc.
    You will not find one with a factory bobtail, many like the option but are not willing to void their warranty to have their frame chopped
    Accessory rail, the PT-1911 comes close in that price range, but other than that you'll pay for a rail.
    Sights, this is getting a little better with some of the Rock Islands but it is what it is, you will not find a $500 1911 with night sights.

    Reliability? Maybe, maybe not. Remember I've had three Kimbers that were totally unreliable but my $450 Springfield has been a champ while our Gen 4 Glock 19 was a dud from the factory. Reliability is a funny thing, you can take a totally reliable platform and change one spring and watch it tank. On the whole are $3K 1911s more reliable than an Import? I would probably say no. There are only reliable guns and unreliable guns, and both can the easily transformed into the other with a little work. I would say that no maker is exempt from turning out an unreliable gun and now it seems that name and rep have no bearing on what you will get. We've seen Glock fall on their face with the Gen 4 issues, We've seen Sig stumble here and there S&W had some issues with the M&P and lets not forget Ruger and their recalls and Kimbers previous history. I think we've just gotten to a point in this industry where no one can be trusted.

    Durability? Most definitely, but durability against what? Are we talking durability of high round count? Are we talking about durability of small parts? Are we talking about durability of finish? Or are we talking internet durability where people do stupid crap like drop guns from choppers and hit them with ball bats?

    Elitism and pride, that's going to depend on individual persons. It's no shock to all that there are gun snobs out there. I generally find them amusing. I just love guns, cheap, expensive, rare or abundant I love guns and I'm particularly fond of 1911s. I have one of these 3K 1911s and it wasn't for elitism or pride, I wanted a very specific set of specs and there was no way to get what I wanted without either buying a base gun and sending it out to a smith or go with a production/custom or full custom. In the beginning I did try to go with a lower cost provider but they kept butchering my build sheet. I knew when I called Nighthawk that I'd read off my sheet and they'd say "OK, we can do that" and that it would be right. I spoke with the guy on the phone for about an hour discussing my build and I felt 100X more assured that my gun would be what I wanted from them.

    My $450 Springfield (Pre 2001 Loaded), my $1450 Les Baer (modified TRS) and my $3200 all shoot about the same. There are some subtle differences in them, and that's mainly just the smoothness of the action, but I'd be hard pressed to "better than the rest" group with either of them, that's not saying it can't be done, just that I don't have the ability to get the guns to their full potential in the hand. I've yet to test all three off the rest (will make and interesting project this winter) to compare mechanical accuracy with little shooter induced error...

    OTOH, what’s the difference in a new Glock that costs $525 and one that costs, hmmm, there’s no place to go with that.
    That's not entirely true as there some customized Glocks out there with this and that connector and this and that grip treatment etc. Certainly there's not the price range seen in the 1911 genre, but there aren't two dozen makers of Glock either.

    And we should at least ask ourselves which is more dependable, reliable, and durable, a $525 Glock or a $3000 1911 and how do we determine that? And before you answer that the 1911 was in four wars, etc. – those weren’t $3,000 precision, tool steel guns. I doubt there was a tool steel part in them anywhere. Nor were they anywhere near the precision or fit of a $3000 1911. So if the ‘wars’ are an indication, they prove, well you can decide for yourself what that proves. Just keep in mind as you decide there were no tool steel, precision machined, precisely hand fitted 1911s in any war.
    Well in our case, Limas $1700 Wilson was much more reliable than her Gen4 Glock 19 in terms of number of jams as the Wilson had one failure to extract while here Glock choked and puked every magazine for her.

    My recent experiences with 1911s have raised a lot of questions in my mind about what it takes for a 1911 to be as reliable and dependable as a plastic gun, specifically the Glock. Even more so, can a 1911 ever be as dependable, reliable, and durable as a Glock? Keep this in mind as I say this: the XDs and M&Ps do NOT fit the Glock antithesis concept in that both the XD and M&P use precision sears (parts) where one part of a Glock sear is a piece of bent metal, literally, and the mate is essentially a non-precision bump on the striker pin.
    Most certainly, pending on the entire composition of the gun my Les Baer has approx 4-5K rounds though it and the only mishaps I've had with that gun were from my first venture into reloading with some out of spec LSWCs. It's been redone to run better without lube and be more corrosion resistant. My Springfield has a wonderful track record as do your own Kimbers. Looking at your round counts across three guns, can you say they are any less reliable than your Glock(s)? If you want to know how to make a 1911 run better, that we can do. Keep in mind that Les Baers are supposed to be some of the tightest 1911s out there. For those that equate lack of cleaning and still functioning, my TRS has gone between 1500 and 2K rounds without any more than a little more lube and a wipe down of the feed-way.


    I will justify the use of ‘non-precision’ with regard to the sear on the striker of the Glock, since precision and special metals seem to be a significant issue. Several years ago, I was looking at ways to reduce the trigger pull on a Glock without going to the 3.5 lb connector or changing striker and trigger springs. It occurred to me that one way might be to change the angle of the sear face on the striker. It’s essentially at a 90° angle and if it had some slope on it, it would let the trigger bar sear slide easier across the face. In fact, with enough slope, it could almost shoot itself! Before I did anything, I called Arthur Viani, president of Ghost Inc. to discuss this with him. It turns out, no surprise here, he’d already tried that and he couldn’t tell any difference. So when I say, non-precision, it’s true.

    Not really sure how this applies, just quoting it to maintain the integrity of the original post.


    I presume the rationale behind tool steel is that level of toughness is required for dependability, reliability, and longevity of the 1911, else why go to the trouble and expense? But then, if that is true, then that’s indicative of a platform shortcoming. What I’m saying is if we design something and the success of the ‘thing’ relies heavily on precision and special metals that would NOT be required by a different design, then we have created demanding a design. We seem to gloss over this with the 1911, but what other gun is considered to be so dependent on special metals and hand fitting?
    Perhaps to keep the parts being maid in house and under the control of the manufacturer? As you've all ready hashed out in other threads, MIM is totally acceptable, provided it's been made right. I would wager the main use of tool steel is to remove the FUD factor from their parts. The success of the 1911 does not rely heavily on precision and special metals as we've seen the cast/mim lower tier guns do quite well. Is the design demanding? Yes and no. For some it's too demanding, there are some that would balk at having to check extractor tension once a year or so. Some people can't even get past the take down procedure. I would say that the 1911 in certain configurations where tools are required past the removal of the grip screws/bushing are too demanding. Except for those two standard items, I can take down my Baer, Nighthawk and Springfield without the aide of bushing wrenches or or other silly things like takedown tools or Allen wrenches. The design was not that demanding to begin with, manufactures made it that way.

    No getting into parts replacement, other than the extractor and springs, unless the gun is going to see an abnormally huge round count I doubt any parts would have to be replaced unless due to user error. Normal wear and tear of today's metals is much better than those of the 40s (or so I've been told) just look at some original 1911s that are still operable? Sure those are not the 3K guns, but in terms of 1911s as a whole, the original M1911s were tighter than the M1911A1.

    Interestingly enough, we would not accept this in most anything else. Would you want to pay for a car that required special metals and hand fitting to be reliable? The cost would be exorbitant. So either tool steel is needed for reliability and longevity in a 1911 or it is not. If it is not, why do manufacturers advertise tool steel parts in their 1911s and charge so much money for them?
    As
    I think this mostly meeting the demands of a certain type of customer and remove doubt about MIM, are they required? I'd probably opt for not, but if a maker does not want to go through the costs of setting up their own MIM works and does not want to use another makers parts...they stick with their own forgings and processes. As for the cars, why but a sedan with 18" wheels? the car analogy is a little over done IMHO and I'm going to leave it at that.

    The same can be said for precision hand fitting of parts. The implication is that a 1911 cannot be simply mass produced, but needs to be precisely hand fitted. Why does it need to be precisely hand fitted? A design shortcoming perhaps? Glocks aren’t hand fitted in any way that I’m aware of. Well, maybe the barrel to the slide, but I don’t know about that. You can certainly buy drop in barrels for Glocks. In fact you can switch from a .40 cal barrel to a .357 sig barrel by just dropping in a barrel. And there are drop in barrels readily available for 1911s also. Hmmm, if drop ins work maybe all that hand precision isn’t needed.
    With CNC machining getting where it is is less hand fitting is required, but the shops that charge more still do the fitting by hand as well as some other things, that's where most of the cost comes from, paying for the skilled labor in the hand fitting process. Some don't care about such things, let them buy Rock Islands, if someone wants a nicely fit/finished piece of steel, let them buy an Ed Brown. Obviously if they are still in business during our current economic state, they have to be doing something right.

    I can see the need for hand fitting if we’re wanting the ultimate precision gun. But what magnitude of precision do we gain in going from a $525 Glock to a $3000 1911 and for what purpose? But, for this discussion, ultimate precision is not the concern, ultimate dependability and durability is.
    For that you'd probably have to watch the videos from Ed Brown and Les Baer. Going back to dependability and durability, again I have examples of 1911s ranging from $450 to $3K that are equally reliable to even properly running Glocks.

    I would concede that the trigger can make a significant difference, but $500 1911s can be made to have 3.5 lb crisp trigger and often with the stock parts and in total cost more like $600. So why pay more? I’m not saying that makes it as accurate as a high dollar precision fitted gun, but we’re not discussing accuracy, but rather dependability, durability, and reliably.
    If I had a buck for every know-nothing scallywag that boasted about this trigger or that trigger on the internet or gun shop, I'd be a rich man (not saying this about Tangle, but others I've seen over the years across the boards and such), a 3lbs trigger or a 5.5lbs trigger usually can't be discerned by half of these people. Trigger feel has nothing to do with dependability or durability, it's a sounding board for those that need to justify whatever. In my years of 1911 ownership, a trigger gauge has never touched my guns while under my ownership and I don't care what the poundage is. It does not matter. If there is no creep or drag and it resets properly that's all that matters.

    So the focus question is, is the $500 1911 gonna break; prove to be finicky or unreliable?
    You just don't know, but that's the case with any gun.

    A Glock costs about $500 and suffers from none of these problems.
    Do you recall the issues with the G36? And I've all ready mentioned the Gen 4 issues. Didn't you yourself mention issues with your G21? When you say "these problems" what problems are you talking about?

    So again, if the $500 1911 is subject to failure whereas a high dollar gun is not, then there is a insufficiency in the design of platform. We do have to face this: we’re comparing a machined gun of various grades of precision and special metals to a plastic and stamped metal Glock. And who would question the reliability, dependability, or durability of a Glock?
    In my experience, my $500 range 1911s (Colt Combat Commander, Springfield Loaded, and a couple of Paras) have been just as reliable as my more expensive guns. As for the dependability of the Glock, that's a matter of opinion, models, and dates. The design/build process of the 1911 may not be as practical as it once was, but it is not "insufficient" as a whole which your own experiences with your Kimbers can show. Some just do it better than others and it seems like Kimber is back in that ball park for at least the time being.

    [quote]With respect to durability and reliability, which needs more attention to lubrication – a $3000 1911 or a $500 Glock? Again, this is going to depend on the exact gun. It could be either or depending on the details. My two primary 1911s run very well with very little lube.
    So lets wind up by bringing this down to practice – where the rubber meats the road. A guy has shot a 1911 and really likes it and decides to get one for SD. Which one should he get? Does he need a $3000 1911 to have the dependability a 1911 SD gun should have? Does he need the hand fitting for a SD gun? Does it need to have tool steel parts? Are Colt parts so superior to others that only they should be used? Would a entry level SA 1911 serve him well or would it be a failure that just hasn’t happened yet?
    Nope. There is no "one 1911 to get" my usual suggestion is to get one that fits your budget enough to allow for a couple of good magazines, a holster and some ammunition, choose one that had a good warranty.

    I'm just as comfortable carrying my $450 Springfield as my Baer or NHC.
    In my days of ‘trail’ racing, the issue of what helmet came up. The cliché answer was “Do you have a $25 head or a $100 head?” Maybe the same applies to selecting a 1911 for SD, do we have a $500 or a $3000 life?
    Regarding some guns this is true, particularly the Llama and older Firestorm brand, there is no reason to buy a $3K 1911 except for a very specific build criteria or just flat out enjoyment of a finely crafted piece. I would probably advise NOT buying a $3K gun for self defense. I've carried mine but that's because I carry what I shoot and my gun was designed to fill all my range/competition/carry needs.


    Anyway, these are some thoughts going through my mind, and right now, I’m quite undecided. Well, maybe I'm leaning; I am carrying a Kimber Tactical Pro right now.
    If you're still carrying it, you've answered your own questions and come up with the same answers I have. You do not need a 3K 1911 for carry, but there are some reasons to go the higher cost route.

  10. #55
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,551
    There's really no statistical proof to support anything.
    That we here are aware of, doesn't mean there isn't any. If you're really interested in knowing, call George Smith @ EGW (215-538-1012), he has a many negatives about MIM as Frank has praise. If anybody would be aware of any actual statistical data, I would image George would.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,971
    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    That we here are aware of, doesn't mean there isn't any. If you're really interested in know, call George Smith @ EGW (215-538-1012), he has a many negatives about MIM as Frank has praise. If anybody would be aware of any actual statistical data, I would image George would.
    You also talk to Ed Brown or Les Bear.
    NRA PATRON LIFE
    BROWN WATER NAVY

  12. #57
    Senior Member
    Array Armydad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    553
    I haven't taken it that far down to check the extractor. The slide was definitely beveled and the parts that I could see with the hand grips off were smooth. I am no 1911 expert by any means but this one has been good so far. I did have to send it back to Springer for a bad ambi thumb safety (burr) but other than that is has been good. It is unbelievably accurate. I also do not carry as it is too big and heavy, but there is nothing in my arsenal that shoots anywhere as good. I would be interested in a review from you of the Ruger SR1911 as that is what I have my eye on as my next 1911 purchase. Kimber makes a beautiful gun but they are awfully pricey for only having a one year warranty!

  13. #58
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    JD,

    I see we agree for the most part, but I think the reliability of Glocks up to the gen 4 is irrefutable. That's not to say they are perfect, they are not, but they have proven to be uber reliable. Glock has had some disappointments, but they are tiny exceptions in the overall history of Glock. And yes, I think Kimber went through some QC issues that it appears they have overcome.

    It is indeed refreshing to hear yet another voice that is finding MIM not to be the failure waiting to happen many stereo-type it to be.

    I agree that what you get for that extra $2000 are things that have much more to do with looks, personal preferences, etc. than reliability.

    Part of the point of my post, I don't know if you caught this or not was to look at the extremes. To do that I chose 1911 and Glock. The reason I chose the 1911 platform is because it has very precision parts and I chose the Glock because it doesn't. This comparison addresses platform advantages and short comings. That's why I explained the non-precision of the Glock action. If we just consider the sear and hammer machining requirements to a Glock, we would see that the 1911 requires fairly demanding precison to mate correctly. OTOH, one part of a Glock is simply sheared and stamped. The striker requires some precision but it's not critical even to the angle of the sear on the striker.

    I'm not so sure about your point about the precision of todays machining. Over 20 years ago I saw an EDM demo I couldn't believe! CNC machining has been around at least that long as well, capable of one ten thousandths accuracy. But machining precision would apply to the 1911 platform far more than the Glock platform, again Glock internals are either stamped metal or molded plastic. So again the focus on precision machining seems to emphasizes the need for the it in the 1911 platform.

    I must say I sure like what your experience with all grades of 1911s has revealed. That's more in line with the way I think the 1911 platform should be. They work reliably at the $500 mark and you can add to that to suit one's personal preferences and wallet.

    I have to say, it really troubled me to think that a 1911 has to have high precison, special metals, precise hand fitting to be dependable.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  14. #59
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    I haven't taken it that far down to check the extractor. The slide was definitely beveled and the parts that I could see with the hand grips off were smooth. I am no 1911 expert by any means but this one has been good so far. I did have to send it back to Springer for a bad ambi thumb safety (burr) but other than that is has been good. It is unbelievably accurate. I also do not carry as it is too big and heavy, but there is nothing in my arsenal that shoots anywhere as good. I would be interested in a review from you of the Ruger SR1911 as that is what I have my eye on as my next 1911 purchase. Kimber makes a beautiful gun but they are awfully pricey for only having a one year warranty!
    Hmmm, I keep hearing Kimbers are pricey. I paid $1400 for my TRP and it has no features that my $1089 Kimber Tactical Pro doesn't have. In addition to the Kimber being cheaper, the quality of parts finish and fit inside the Kimber blows my TRP away. Could you be comparing entry level Springers to a Kimber with more features? Like a checkered front strap, mag chute, night sights, match grade barrel, ambi safety, etc? But speaking of too big and heavy, my Kimber Tactical Pro has a 7075 aluminum frame, which probably runs the cost up a bit too, and weighs only 28 ounces - that's one reason I bought it - I think full size steel 1911s are too heavy too.

    It's not the extractor on the TRP, although it did break, it's the disconnector, or in the 1911 jargon, the disco, that looked so bad in the TRP.

    Oh, and that one year warranty - don't believe it. Oh, it exists, but I know guys that have sent their Kimbers in for 'warranty' work after they were ten years old. Believe me, Kimber is going to support their guns and customers. I suspect the only thing the one year warranty is for is to get them out of stuff due to user error after a year. It isn't a problem. What's more, from what I'm seeing, you won't need to use the warranty.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  15. #60
    JD
    JD is offline
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    JD,

    I see we agree for the most part, but I think the reliability of Glocks up to the gen 4 is irrefutable. That's not to say they are perfect, they are not, but they have proven to be uber reliable. Glock has had some disappointments, but they are tiny exceptions in the overall history of Glock. And yes, I think Kimber went through some QC issues that it appears they have overcome.

    It is indeed refreshing to hear yet another voice that is finding MIM not to be the failure waiting to happen many stereo-type it to be.
    True on Glocks pre-gen 4 history, but if we're to discount the 1911s previous track record of success (M1911/M1911A1) before people started mucking it up, we might as well discount Glocks initial success and compare current production nightmares to current production nightmares.

    As for MIM, I look at with with a sideways glance. I'm not so afraid of it that I won't go near the stuff but I'm not sure how I feel about it in certain applications. My basic rule of thumb with 1911s is this...

    If it works, leave it alone.

    That being said, there are some parts I suggest replacing almost immediately. Full length guide rods in 5" guns. The Springfield locking mainspring housing and Kimber Pro/Compact recoil springs and plastic mainspring housings (I've torn one to pieces on reinstall trying to get the cap retaining pin in) all should go in my opinion. I like Wilson or Ed Brown short recoil spring guides and plugs, I like the aluminum main spring housings from VZ and get most of my springs from Wolff.

    Finishes to avoid are true blued guns, select a gun with tough finish or spring for an afetrmarket finish, there's enough guys doing Cerakote now that it's pretty cost effective and there should be local finishers to apply it. All in all I like bare stainless as any replacement parts in stainless will match.

    If you want to be able to keep the gun up to a certain extent, get a replacement extractor, it may be years before you need it, but you'll be happy you have it should it ever be needed. If not, have a back up gun in your range bag etc.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

1911 breech face
,
1911 disconnector polish
,

1911 disconnector rail bevel

,
1911 swartz safety
,
1911 trigger bow
,

kimber breech face

,
kimber slide
,

swartz safety

,

tool steel 1911

,

tool steel 1911 parts

,
tool steel in firearms
,
usp breech face
Click on a term to search for related topics.