Why you should carry one in the chamber!

This is a discussion on Why you should carry one in the chamber! within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Breathe in... Breathe out..., Breathe in... Breathe out. I just realized who I've been talking to in all these posts. Should have known better....

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Thread: Why you should carry one in the chamber!

  1. #61
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    Breathe in... Breathe out..., Breathe in... Breathe out.

    I just realized who I've been talking to in all these posts.

    Should have known better.
    Snider, SIGguy229, JDE101 and 1 others like this.
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  3. #62
    Member Array Snider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Breathe in... Breathe out..., Breathe in... Breathe out.

    I just realized who I've been talking to in all these posts.

    Should have known better.
    Hehe, I gotta say, I need to remind myself to take it easy after my mid-afternoon coffee. If I write too many vehement posts, I'll just hurt my own brain eventually. Today was darn near the edge for me

  4. #63
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Just wondering, is this going to become a weekly topic?

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Just wondering, is this going to become a weekly topic?
    I tracked all the 2009 "chamber" threads...there were 19, some may have been merged before I noticed them. In 2010 we pretty much managed to keep them merged into one thread IIRC. I've been slacking in '11. Maybe it's time to mass merge and sticky the damn thing

  6. #65
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    Agree with JD. However I will say that this is getting ridiculous. Its just as bad as the open carry vs concealed carry argument, theres both sides of the argument. you are both right as far as your beliefs. If thats how he wants to carry, its not my business
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Anyone have popcorn? I'm gonna sit this one out, but need something to snack on.

    10/4 !!!!! I just sit back and watch on these threads. I have said my piece. I am not trying to win over anyone. So....Have at it dogs!! :)

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Agree with JD. However I will say that this is getting ridiculous. Its just as bad as the open carry vs concealed carry argument, theres both sides of the argument. you are both right as far as your beliefs. If thats how he wants to carry, its not my business
    If its not any of your business then why are you posting here? I'm not getting smart, I'm just saying that no one is "making" anyone carry one way or the other. Its not anything to me if anyone carries at all. If someone, however, asks for an opinion then I don't feel like I'm forcing my beliefs down anyone's throat when I give my opinion. I have reasons for what I believe and I have listed them accordingly. In the end everyone has to make up their own mind about how they carry. There are consequences to your actions and ultimately you are the one that will pay for said consequences. Some consequences are heavier than others. Some consequences will cost you your life but that is nothing to me either. Am I saying I want anyone to die? Of course not but like what has been said before, its everyone's own business in how they carry and with that being said, everyone will pay the consequences for their own actions.

    I hope for the best for everyone and that noone ever has to draw their weapon to defend themselves or anyone else for that matter.

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  9. #68
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    If you want to carry w/empty chamber its your right, go for it
    If you want to carry w/loaded chamber its your right, go for it

    now for my $0.02......
    Coming from a person that carries a gun every day at work, every day off-duty, and 99% of the time at home (its on the table next to my laptop as I type this), I carry chambered on-duty (required), off-duty, and with my backup strapped on my vest. I've been in foot chases, high-speed pursuits with very rough driving, and been involved in fights rolling around on the ground with dirtbags. The duty G17 in the holster and Keltec P11 (or S&W 642) strapped to my vest have never discharged (neither has the G30 off-duty). If you carry a high-quality weapon and not some piece of crap, AND follow the 4 rules...the ND thing will not be an issue.

    I've had to draw my pistol numerous times, some being in high-risk/adrenaline pumping situations. Every time I needed it drawn NOW and get on target ASAP ready to fire! In a SD situation I would not want to have my brain having to cycle/compute, or get stuck in the OODA loop, in having to chamber a round while facing a threat and reacting to what it is doing, etc.
    Take that for what you will from a person doing this stuff on an almost daily basis and that has had training in unarmed/martial arts, firearms, and tactics SD training. I'm way more concerned with getting a hot weapon out and on target than I'm worrying about a ND.
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    That being the case, I assume you also walk around all day wearing body armor? Do you also keep a gas mask around on you at all times in case of a terrorist attack? I think all of us draw a line at how well we want to defend ourselves and decide how much risk and discomfort we want to take.

    Ummmmmm wow how do I respond to that how about YES. I wear 36 pounds of body armor on daily basis, I have slept in body armor and helmet, I carry an AK-47 and a sidearm with extra mags because I am prepared for whatever might happen. Sorry they don't issue gas masks here but if they did I would carry it.
    You do whatever you think you can handle or in this case not handle. Just as someone else said I hope you get a polite, understanding, criminal because if not you are screwed.
    TN_Mike, OD* and 64zebra like this.
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  11. #70
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    While I will admit that I do live a sheltered lifestyle, and have not been attacked with lethal force, my reasoning has to do more with reading hundreds of stories of self-defense on the internet. In most cases I have read, no shots are ever fired and simply possessing a weapon will stop the attack. These are the stories you never hear about on the news because people often don't call the police, and even if they did the story isn't interesting enough to put on the evening news unless somebody was shot. I even saw a statistic on it once, but can't find it at the moment. But the number of these types of self-defense situations are much higher than they kind you describe.

    It seems most of the people who really, really advocate the chambered round seem to believe that all self-defense situations will be fast and end with somebody being dead. And while I'll certainly admit that these do happen, I just don't get the impression that it is the norm.

    I've also pointed out in other threads that my first split-second reaction to such an unexpected attack would be to respond with my martial arts training. Even with a gun with a hot round in the chamber is not as fast of a response as my hands. If somebody surprises me with a gun or knife, my gun will be an afterthought. Once I've neutralized the immediate threat, I'll go for my gun. Then there are just some scenarios (like the one in the first video) where you are pretty much screwed and there is just no way to win regardless.
    I don't know where to start....problem one, you admit to living a sheltered life yet you speak as though you have vast worldly experience. That speaks for itself really.

    Problem two, you think we all believe that any defensive situation we might encounter will result in us killing someone. Again, this belief speaks for itself. And doesn't help your case at all.

    Problem three, you seem way, WAY too confident in your martial arts skills. You talk ALOT about them. I'm not saying you are lieing, I'm simply saying that it has been my experience that guys, especially young guys, who talk alot about how good of a shot they are or how good at martial arts they are tend to be not good at either and often have no experience at all with either. I'm just letting you know the impression you are giving to me, and maybe a few others here. Plus, I have seen guys who had black belts get their butts handed to them fast in street fights. Most scum bags really don't care if you are Bruce Lee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snider View Post
    Your logic is fundamentally flawed, and critically so. In a way that will absolutely result in your death in the moment of your greatest need, and tragically effecting anyone you are attempting to save as well. You do not comprehend the mindset that I believe a majority of other forum members adhere to; that our gun is the worst case tool, the absolute last option we want to exercise. I and many others here will engage with physical force, with other tools, with our motor vehicle, and those of us in states requiring by law the effort to disengage and flee, list that as a higher priority than drawing our gun.

    I challenge you to find a single person here that "believe that all self-defense situations will be fast and end with somebody being dead." That statement is so far off the mark as to be offensive to me. Do you really have such a low opinion of the members of this forum as to assume that we anticipate all self-defense situations will result in us drawing and killing someone? As if.

    By not carrying a gun with a chambered round, you are failing in a final step pf preparation due to an irrational fear of your toolset, and by admitting that repeatedly on this forum you draw the ire of rational, sane adults who have applied decades of actual experience toward answering the question you pose. I grit my teeth and avoid threads that you get into the mix on the subject, but this post was too much to pass up.
    I love the fact the DC now has a "Like" button but occasionally, such as with this post, I think it should have a much stronger option. Heck Yeah! Would be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Oh.. I see your mis-understanding now. You seem to think that I am professing that somehow I would do better, when I am not. I would probably suffer the same fate as him. Although it does appear there is something wrong with this guy's gun (the slide was stuck open) I do not believe I would do any better than this guy. He was shot from a distance without any warning. I would have been shot too. He was unable to get his gun to function. I may or may not fair better than him getting a round chambered. At least I'm well practiced in getting one chambered even with one hand. I also know my gun and1 know that it will always chamber correctly and not malfunction as his appears to do. So I may have a better chance of returning fire. I have timed my attempts to draw, aim, and fire with and without chambering a round. Chambering a round typically adds an additional 0.5 seconds to my draw.

    I'm not claiming to be as well prepared as the rest of you in regards to my practice. I never have. I just take my position based on my perception of two threats. One threat is the type shown in the video, and the other threat is that of an ND. Personally, I feel I'm safer doing things the way I do.

    I will say this.. after recently running through a variety of scenarios, I determined I need to either start carrying my little gun chambered due to my2 inability to chamber a round with sweaty hands. Or stop carrying that gun. So I've done a little of both. I've decided only to carry the little gun when I absolutely have to, and I will keep a round chambered in that one. My daily carry weapon, on the other hand, 3 I have not yet been able to produce a scenario that would keep me from chambering a round. 4 So a round is only chambered when I'm in a riskier part of town.

    On that note... I think I'm going to bow out of this thread. Not because I feel I'm proven wrong. But the truth is, I have nothing to prove to anyone else, and I have no desire or intention of changing anyone's mind on their carry habbits. And since there are only 2 of us here that admit to carrying unchambered, there is little point in arguing about it. If anyone wants any advice or to talk about carrying unchambered, feel free to PM me.
    1 I wish I was omnipotent and KNEW my gun would never malfunction. Has ANYONE here seriously ever heard of a gun that would NEVER malfunction, for any reason?? What a ridiculous statement.

    2 How about how you'd do with bloody hands?

    3 Keep thinking about it. If you still can't come up with any ask, I'm sure the more learned members here can provide you with several.

    4 Again, the omnipotent aspect. In a "riskier" part of town you may not have time to draw and chamber but in the "nicer" parts of town, that won't be a problem. I'm glad you can see the future so clearly. It must make picking lottery numbers very easy.

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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Consider the following. If the law only provided you are allowed to carry a gun if it is unchambered. For example, people who open-carry in California can't even keep a magazine in their gun, but they still carry anyway. So if the law were written as such, would you just leave your gun at home because you consider it useless without a round in the chamber?
    Going all the way back to Post #6 on Page 1: The people who open carry in California in the manner described carry in the most ready state that they are legally allowed to carry. That is why, I believe, most people carry with one in the chamber; because it is the most ready state legally available to most parties.

    The absurd, hypothetical, flip side of the coin is why don't you carry unloaded? Similarly to carrying without a round in the chamber, carrying completely unloaded is clearly the safest method and only adds one more step to the process. The vast majority of people probably wouldn't recognize that a gun is missing a magazine when drawn and pointed at them if your intent is just to 'scare them off'.

    The purpose of a gun is to kill an aggressor. If it de-escalates the situation prior to the need for deadly force; wonderful! But always be prepared for that high end: to stop an aggressor by killing them.
    Mental preparation is key in this regard: Can you kill some nameless thug on the street trying to kill you? Can you kill your own dog if it's attacking you? If your brother or sister or spouse is coming after you with deadly force would you lay down and let them kill you or would you kill them first? It's a little messed up to think about someone close to you trying to kill you but it is completely NOT beyond the realm of possibilities. I can only imagine most of the stories in the news are full of people who say things like "I never thought it could happen to me," but it did.
    Just like the Boy Scouts: Be Prepared.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    Problem three, you seem way, WAY too confident in your martial arts skills. You talk ALOT about them. I'm not saying you are lieing, I'm simply saying that it has been my experience that guys, especially young guys, who talk alot about how good of a shot they are or how good at martial arts they are tend to be not good at either and often have no experience at all with either. I'm just letting you know the impression you are giving to me, and maybe a few others here. Plus, I have seen guys who had black belts get their butts handed to them fast in street fights. Most scum bags really don't care if you are Bruce Lee.
    This is a very important point. I've not had a lot of experience with martial arts training, and precious little actual experience fighting for real. If adric or anyone else has been training and preparing, it helps a lot with reacting instead of folding up, in my opinion. However, nothing in the world prepares you for the first time you get hit in the face, with full force, repeatedly. No training helps you cope with that impact and pain. If you've been in a few fights, been hurt, and know how you react, that can help you measure your ability to fight greatly in my opinion.

    I've been hit hard enough in a fight to lose consciousness, fall and regain it a split second before my face hit the ground. Recovering was very, very difficult, my entire memory of the event was swimming, and scrambling to hang in there was no joke. I hope if you fully intend to place the weight of your personal well being on your ability to handle yourself with a martial arts focus, that you really can muster the kind of resolve to survive and win. I do not trust my size, strength, ability or resolve to win as being sufficient to defend myself, so I carry a gun. And I carry it ready to use.

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snider View Post
    This is a very important point. I've not had a lot of experience with martial arts training, and precious little actual experience fighting for real. If adric or anyone else has been training and preparing, it helps a lot with reacting instead of folding up, in my opinion. However, nothing in the world prepares you for the first time you get hit in the face, with full force, repeatedly. No training helps you cope with that impact and pain. If you've been in a few fights, been hurt, and know how you react, that can help you measure your ability to fight greatly in my opinion.
    I know I said I was going to stay out of this thread, but this doesn't have anything to do with the chambered/unchambered issue. I wanted to address the martial arts issue. I get the impression some people think I'm trying to say I'm Bruce Lee or Steven Segal. I'm not. In fact, I'm not even as good as other people in my class. I'm not saying I can take on a room full of people and have them all on the ground with broken bones if I'm attacked. The only thing I'm saying is that in the event I am taken by surprise and somebody is pointing a gun at me, knife at me, or just trying to grab me, whatever, my first response is not going to be to go for my gun. My first response will be to try to eliminate that gun, knife, whatever from an immediate threat. I'm probably not even going to think about it much, because the situations are so rehearsed. For example, a gun pointed in my face, I'm going to use the maneuver that has been rehearsed 100's of times. I'm going to move my head out of the way while simultaneously grabbing their wrist and taking it the opposite direction. This will take the muzzle of the gun out of my face. I'm 100% convinced I can pull that off. Now, what happens after that? All bets are off. It is possible he may regain control of his weapon and shoot me. It is also possible, if I do everything correctly, I may take his weapon from him and have him on the ground with a broken elbow. Those are best and worst scenarios. Anything in between may also happen. But one thing is for sure. Even if my gun is chambered, there is no way I'll have time to draw it, aim, and fire before he can react to it. However, it has been proven over and over again, that it is possible to move that muzzle away from my face faster than the bad guy can react. In fact, the bad guy is not expecting the retaliation at all, which puts him at an even greater disadvantage than when this is rehearsed in a classroom because our "bad guys" know it is coming, and still can't fire off a round in most cases.

    So I hope I've cleared that up.. even if I carried my gun chambered 100% of the time, I'm still not likely to go for it in a surprise-attack. There just isn't time.

    Lets talk about some other situations. Lets say there is one guy with a gun and there are two victims. Even with very minimal training (just 2 or 3 classes) somebody will know how to get the muzzle of that gun out of their face. Even if they can't do anything but that, and they can just hold onto the bad guys wrist for a few seconds, the second victim can jump in to help immobilize the bad guy. Another thing to consider, a lot of people say that the bad guy will start hitting you with his other hand, etc. And yes, this can happen. But usually it doesn't, at least not until he has time to think about it. A bad guy needs his weapon. As soon as he realizes his hold on that weapon is in danger, his primary response is to regain control of that weapon so he's going to be tugging his arm in a reactionary response. After a couple of seconds, if he still hasn't regained his weapon, he may start pounding you with his other fist, going for a knife in his pocket, etc. But when you take him by surprise, he's not going to have a planned response like you had. You have a couple of seconds to make your move.

    Truth be told.... I hope never to use or need any of these things. I think prevention is really the key to self defense. That means staying away from where the crime is as much as possible, and even when crime comes to you - try to have a heightened sense of awareness. The criminal type who likes surprise attacks will probably avoid me because I'm constantly looking around and making eye contact with people. I avoid walking close to objects that might allow somebody to be hiding behind it. So unless somebody attacks me while I'm signing a credit card receipt in wal-mart, or when I'm sitting in the cinema watching a movie, it is unlikely to happen. Not to say that I won't be attacked, but I just don't think it would be a surprise attack. It looks like we all have slightly different ideas about how to protect ourselves when it happens, but surely we can all agree on this point that prevention is the best tactic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I know I said I was going to stay out of this thread, but this doesn't have anything to do with the chambered/unchambered issue. I wanted to address the martial arts issue. I get the impression some people think I'm trying to say I'm Bruce Lee or Steven Segal. I'm not. In fact, I'm not even as good as other people in my class. I'm not saying I can take on a room full of people and have them all on the ground with broken bones if I'm attacked. The only thing I'm saying is that in the event I am taken by surprise and somebody is pointing a gun at me, knife at me, or just trying to grab me, whatever, my first response is not going to be to go for my gun. My first response will be to try to eliminate that gun, knife, whatever from an immediate threat. I'm probably not even going to think about it much, because the situations are so rehearsed. For example, a gun pointed in my face, I'm going to use the maneuver that has been rehearsed 100's of times. I'm going to move my head out of the way while simultaneously grabbing their wrist and taking it the opposite direction. This will take the muzzle of the gun out of my face. I'm 100% convinced I can pull that off. Now, what happens after that? All bets are off. It is possible he may regain control of his weapon and shoot me. It is also possible, if I do everything correctly, I may take his weapon from him and have him on the ground with a broken elbow. Those are best and worst scenarios. Anything in between may also happen. But one thing is for sure. Even if my gun is chambered, there is no way I'll have time to draw it, aim, and fire before he can react to it. However, it has been proven over and over again, that it is possible to move that muzzle away from my face faster than the bad guy can react. In fact, the bad guy is not expecting the retaliation at all, which puts him at an even greater disadvantage than when this is rehearsed in a classroom because our "bad guys" know it is coming, and still can't fire off a round in most cases.
    If the BG is more than arm's length away from you with his muzzle in your face, do you really think you will be able to lunge forward to complete that same move before he puts one between your eyes? I am just asking because I want to know how you defend that situation.
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  16. #75
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    If the BG is more than arm's length away from you with his muzzle in your face, do you really think you will be able to lunge forward to complete that same move before he puts one between your eyes? I am just asking because I want to know how you defend that situation.
    Well, first of all, if he is at that distance, it probably isn't the kind of surprise ambush we're talking about to begin with. There is no way to defend against this type of scenario that I am aware of. If you pull a gun, you are shot. If you lunge at him, you are shot. Probably best to do what he wants and wait for a chance. Unless you have a better suggestion, I'm all ears.

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