I don't want to be a cop, so why would I do what cops do.
Originally Posted by Yankeejib
Cops are expected to run into a fire fight, bank robbery, riot, insurgency, crazed shooter, drug bust, you name it.
I don't hang out in bad neighborhoods, do undercover drug buys, or attempt to be a hero.
I want something that may save my bacon if trouble finds me, and I don't want it to be in the safe because it's too difficult to carry today.
Here's the real problem with a pocket gun. It takes up your pocket. Everything that formerly went in two pockets, now has to go in one. Phone, keys, lighter, change, knife, it's a pain.
I actually think you're better off with a small semi-auto in a IWB holster than a pocket gun, but as I said, My go-to is a Seecamp.
You are not alone. I have also a Kahr PM-9 and that has to be the stiffest recoil spring in the business. It has to be to slow a 9mm recoil in 2".
Originally Posted by brownsbacker
About .380 vs 9mm. As soon as they make a 9mm that will fit my pocket like my Kahr P380 that I can shoot as well as my P380 then I'll carry it. Having said that, there simply isn't a 9mm you can carry in the pocket like the Kahr P380 that is anywhere near as controlable as the .380 is. The PM9 comes close but it's much larger and for many it's a tad too big for pocket carry. Not all of us are 6' 2" and 225lbs. I agree that the .380 is anemic on a good day, however, for true dedicated pocket carry I can't think of anything that comes close to the Kahr P380.
It's got regular night sights and a great sight picture. Reliability is good. It has the best DAO trigger on the market. The grip is better ergonomically than a P3AT or LCP and feels more like a longer fuller grip. There's no external safetys or mag disconnects. The slide locks back after the last round is fired, just like my regular guns and it's far more comfortable and concealable than my J frame due to the missing cylinder buldge.
If I'm wearing heavier fabric pants with deeper pockets then I carry the J frame so I can get to a .38. If the pockets are too shallow they show the backstrap of a J frame. I find a J frame to feel like I'm carrying a round rock. It's that cylinder that makes all the difference. Still if I'm wearing the right pants I go with the J frame. I thnk if you're a bigger guy with bigger pants and pockets then you're fortunate. I read about guys pocket carrying compact 1911's :embarassed:
The Sig P238 is one of the best looking pocket .380's out there, however, I don't like a manual safety on a dedicated pocket gun and I don't like the idea of a single action trigger on a DPG (dedicated pocket gun). Plus the weight is a bit more than the Kahr.
I found the Kahr PM9 which comes close to be very snappy making followup shots a bit more challenging. Okay, I'm willing to admit it. So I got a Kahr MK9 (all stainless but same size as PM9).
I'll say this, I'd much rather change my dress so I can get to IWB carry and a 9mm or better, however, there are times when my work and social obligations require me to go with a tucked shirt and no cover. I've tried ankle carry and smart carry and they were uncomfortable for me. A pocket gun was the least objectionable compromise I could come up with. Even tried tuckable holsters but I'm short and thin and I simply can't do a good job of concealing a Kahr P9 or MK9 under a dress shirt that's tucked in. A tucked holster is hard to get to and in panic mode I could see a guy struggling with that shirt. Also, I don't like a loop on my belt that is....well, just there. I know I know, no one notices anything or so they say but I do and I'd hate to be asked "hey what's that on your belt".
So for certain occasions, the Kahr P380 is about the best dedicated pocket gun that's currently on the market. If you can carry bigger and can shoot it well I'd recommend you do so but don't believe the internet mantra that if you can carry a pocket .380 you can pocket carry something in a 9mm because...well, it's not true for everyone. Now if you can carry and afford a Rorbourgh (sp?) in 9mm that might work but I suspect it's harder to control then the folks who dished out over a grand for it are willing to admit and it seems like it would be awfully heavy in the pocket.
Still that all black Sig P239 with rosewood grips is about the best looking gun I've seen in a long time! :rolleyes:
I'd like to ad that I used to belong to a forum (for a very short time) that would automatically delete your post if you even mentioned a mouse gun. I found the guy running the forum to be arrogant on this point. He came off as self righteous. If he really cared at all about people carrying a sub par caliber he would have allowed the posts and then tried to point out the very real, very significant limitations of .380. Instead they just deleated them and often added little comments that made you feel like a complete idiot for even thinking about a .380.
Truth betold; we will likely wish for a larger gun, larger caliber, and larger capacity if the moment every comes. I've never been in a shooting but I've been in some situations that brought about the symptoms everyone talks about. We'll wish we had always carried the same manual of arms and we'll probably wish we'd trained a whole lot more and we'll wish we'd been paying attention or been somewhere else but we'll likely do whatever we've done the most in those few seconds and for a lot of us there's no telling what that'll be.
So I would try to carry more that a .380 if you can and if you say you can't, we just have to be honest with ourselves that it's really not so much a "can't" as it is a "won't" or a choice. It's my choice not to wear a 9mm IWB with a tuckable or to work at a job or go places where I can't wear a cover and must tuck my shirt.
Unfortunately if there's one word that covers CCW it's compromise and a whole lot of it. Do the best you can.
Enjoy the new week folks
IMHO, if you are going to get a .380 the Sig P-238 is the way to go. We have two of them. I bought one for my wife to use as a daily carry. We left the gun shop, and went directly to the range. Shot 100 rounds through it with a couple of FTF's and FTE's. I was a little concerned, and after cleaning and lubing it, went back to the range the next day. I fired another 100 rounds through it, and not one problem. I think that first day's problems were caused by no lubrication. We both have P-238's and fire them often. No problems at all. They are a very reliable pistol. My 2 pennies worth.
I now have confidence in my Bodyguard after firing the last 300 rounds through it without incident.
The first time I tried to break it in, the trigger broke after 32 rds (no return to battery). Smith had it back to me in 9 days. 52 rounds later, same thing. Almost sold it after S&W repaired it second time.
Painted the front sight white, but actually shoot better with laser. I trust it.
It was among the first BG's off the line. Chances are, all bugs are diminished by now. Just my nickels worth.
I have a sig p238 that I bought about a couple months ago (black with blackwood grips and fiber optic night sights). It's a sweet gun and out to 10 yards, I shoot it about as well as my M&p 9c. I've had no problems with it at all and can't imagine a better shooting or better looking .380.
I thought I would use the P238 as a pocket gun but I'm finding that it's just too heavy in the pocket for me to be comfortable with it. IWB is great and that's how I'll probably end up carrying it most of the time. However, part of me wonders if I wouldn't have been better off with a PPS or PM9 if I'm going to carry IWB anyway.
I will say that I almost bought the P380 as I thought the size was perfect for a pocket gun. I didn't because I thought the Kahr trigger felt as light (if not lighter) than the sig. AND I didn't think the P380 trigger pull was very long (certainly not as long as the PM9); maybe it's the one I tried but it seemed to break pretty darn quick. I hear people all the time saying that they'd never carry a P238 cocked and locked but to me, that seems silly when compared to the P380 with its light trigger and no safety.
Of course now that I've said all that, I have to admit that I'm tempted to go back and pick up a P380 for pocket carry. I'm going to keep trying the Sig but I'm not convinced I can get over the weight for this application.
Take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I'm very new to concealed carry and am still experimenting to see what I'm comfortable with.
Kahr PM9 or PM40 would be better $ spent IMHO. I pocket carry a S&W 340 just fine BTW, it's my "Summer Gun". My Wife, Mother and Mother-in-Law all carry LCP's. I look at it this way, at least they are carrying something.
My P238 (recent manufacture) has been flawless. Being a locked breech design the recoil is much milder than the blowback designs - you can shoot this all day for fun. I decided awhile ago that nothing I owned would be for self defense only. This gun meets and exceeds the 'fun' quotient I require from a gun. I enjoy the 1911 style ergonomics and manual of arms.
Like others I was worried about the cocked&locked aspect of the gun, but the safety indent is both very positive but easy to manipulate when you need to. Doesn't worry me a bit now that I have the gun.
If that doesn't resonate with you then it's the wrong gun for you. To me a gun at half the price that I only shoot 20 times to get the feel for it and then don't shoot it anymore because it is too painful to shoot is a waste of money - to another person it's the best use of money. I shoot (paper) for fun, and if it happens to get me out of a bad situation someday that is a nice bonus. Others think differently.
For me, it's a great gun.
- I'm in the camp that doesn't want a manual safety on a defensive firearm. It's not that I don't think the P238 isn't safe carried cocked and locked, I don't want the added step of taking the safety off when I need it. I've missed several shots while upland hunting and duck hunting last year because I forgot to take the safety off. Hunting isn't a life and death situation, so it's no big deal if I miss a shot.
Originally Posted by BK
Your point is well taken. sorry if I wasn't clear but I was referring to those that say they don't feel safe carrying a p238 cocked and locked in their pocket but have no problem with something like a p380.
Originally Posted by tokerblue
Many people have limitations when it comes to recoil and weight of the everyday carry weapon. I know people who argue all day about how "ineffective" the .380 caliber is compared to the 9mm or 45, but yet it turns out they only carry their "effective" 9mm or 45 about 50% of the time due to its weight. I've yet to come across a good quality 45 auto that I can put in my pocket and forget about it all day.
I appreciate all the posts. Not tyring to be rude. I didn't ask about .45's 9mm's .40's or 44mag. I didn't ask why you are afraid of pocket guns either. Some folks definitely have a complex. I simply was looking for other folks input rergarding their experiences with their 380 semi auto's. I too own and carry several .45's .40's 9mm's I enjoy shooting/playing with them all. I will never tell someone what to carry period. I tried that with my wife and I can say with no reserve that she was 110% completely right. I can post that because she don't read these.
Thanks for the 380 auto opinions both good and bad they are all if not helpful to me I'm sure helpfull and informative to others.:congrats:
My backup is a Sig 232 and the new .380 ammo is a fight stopper, the 232 has enough heft that secound shot is right there and the .380 is what I carried yrs ago when the only hot ammo was Super Vel. Hornady has serverd me well also Winchester, double taps work well , have not tried Guard Dog
I've owned and/or fired all of the .380s except the Seecamp. I'd like to have one of those but haven't found one at my LGS. Maybe I'll order one for myself one day. But, as for the rest the Sig P238 is by far the easiest to shoot, most accurate of all. The LCP and P3AT both have extremely long trigger pulls and are very snappy with the recoil. The SIG is nothing short of awesome. It is my EDC, I have about 850 rounds down the tube of all types of ammo. The gun runs great.
Having a P238, LCP, PPK and a DB380 in the safe and ready for carry. I find I most often choose the PPK for a host of reasons that I find important to me; key word being ME. IMO, the P23 comes up a close second to the PPK in operation, but for carry and concealment it takes the 1st spot. Also, my opinion, the Interarms PPK is the flagship for the .380 along side of the Sig P232.
Will the .380 do the job? I don't know, can you "the shooter" put the round where it needs to go? I'm of the opinion that if you can put a .380 in the same spot you can put most any other carry round, the result will be the same. There's really no guarantee either way, but one things for sure; Some folks need to LOOSE the one shot stop mentality. This isn't the movies, and you're not Jason Bourn/James Bond. My suggestion, load your +p rated .380 with the BuffaloBore 100gr Hard cast round and know that it's one of the best rounds in that caliber, and will do it's part if the shooter can put it where it needs to go. Oh' and that's the main point for any caliber, unless you carry a shotgun for concealed carry.:wink:
Personally, I have enough confidence in the .380 to say that, I'd gladly trade shots with anyone that says it's not a man stopper, but I get to go first.:tongue: