Range Results Short Range Shooting.

Range Results Short Range Shooting.

This is a discussion on Range Results Short Range Shooting. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I hear that most defensive shootings occur around 7-15 feet. So I took the .45 ACP,.410/.45 LC Public Defender and my .357 Mag/.38 Spec to ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array PairA10s's Avatar
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    Range Results Short Range Shooting.

    I hear that most defensive shootings occur around 7-15 feet.

    So I took the .45 ACP,.410/.45 LC Public Defender and my .357 Mag/.38 Spec to put some shake down rounds through them.

    The results are in the next 2 posts.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. "
    (Benjamin Franklin)

    'God made man and woman; Colonel Colt made them equal'." (Ann Coulter)


  2. #2
    Member Array PairA10s's Avatar
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    Here are the results of 18 rounds of 158 grain SJHP .357 Mag/.38 Spec and 24 rounds of 230 grain Ball .45 ACP fired as fast as I could reload and fire.

    I am no Doc Holiday or John Smith but the results speak for themselves and I hope you agree.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. "
    (Benjamin Franklin)

    'God made man and woman; Colonel Colt made them equal'." (Ann Coulter)

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    Member Array PairA10s's Avatar
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    Hey guys here are the pics from my range session with my new Public Defender.

    .410 shot shells of the #4 Birdshot,00,Deer Slugs and PDX1 were used.

    About 20 #4 Bird Shot shells,2 3/4 boxes of 00,2 boxes of Deer Slugs and 95% of a box of PDX1 were used between the 2 targets.



    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. "
    (Benjamin Franklin)

    'God made man and woman; Colonel Colt made them equal'." (Ann Coulter)

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Shooting faster than you can make hits is of limited use. Rather than start as fast as you can go, I would start slow and work up in speed to as fast as you can make 90% or better solid hits and then work from there.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Shooting faster than you can make hits is of limited use. Rather than start as fast as you can go, I would start slow and work up in speed to as fast as you can make 90% or better solid hits and then work from there.
    Well said. Some very experienced (two way range) instructors use the rule that you shoot at the speed you can maintain a group covered by your hand. This might seem small, but their reasoning is the groups will become much larger when the shooting is for keeps. I use 6" paper plates for my target most of the time. They're cheap and force me to maintain a decent accuracy standard. The only time I find near misses acceptable is when training specifically to push the speed at which I can shoot.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PairA10s View Post
    I hear that most defensive shootings occur around 7-15 feet.

    So I took the .45 ACP,.410/.45 LC Public Defender and my .357 Mag/.38 Spec to put some shake down rounds through them.

    The results are in the next 2 posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by PairA10s View Post
    Here are the results of 18 rounds of 158 grain SJHP .357 Mag/.38 Spec and 24 rounds of 230 grain Ball .45 ACP fired as fast as I could reload and fire.

    I am no Doc Holiday or John Smith but the results speak for themselves and I hope you agree.

    Hey PairA10s! I'm the same "TSiWRX" that's on OFCC.

    I think I missed you there, but as I saw your posting here today, I figure that I'd try you here, too.

    Do you have a closer picture of the first one?

    It looks like you had some misses, at 10-13 ft., there.... How were you shooting? Slow, methodical shots while stationary - or were those from a concealment draw (speaking of - were these configured as you would normally carry your multiple concealed firearms? [ ref: New CCW ] and moving fast?

    You said more here than you did on the Ohioans for Concealed Carry Forums - at least now I know that you'd been shooting as a rapid string, which partially answers the question above: but even if that's the case, at that range, I honestly believe that there should have been no misses: at least not on a full-sized target.

    I'm no gunslinger, either - as anyone who was at Commence Firearms Academy (Cleveland, Ohio) class this past weekend will readily tell you. Cross that with the fact that I'm a newbie to "the gun world" and only been shooting since November of this past year, and yep, I've got plenty of learning to do. But I honestly believe that at that range, if you were stationary, regardless of how fast you were shooting, there should not be any misses at all.

    Also, did you try patterning your Public Defender at different ranges? I would imagine that if you were going to use buckshot or birdshot in that pistol, the concerns for it would be the same as with a shotgun - i.e. that you've got to know how the gun and the ammo you're using patterns at-distance, so that you'll know if you can safely take the shot.

    Please don't take this the wrong way - I'm trying to be constructive. :)

    I'm still working on the "slow is smooth" part of that old equation.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array NY27's Avatar
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    I agree with Guantes. Slow it down, build good techniques and then speed up accordingly. The paper plate is a good idea.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Yeah, the paper plates are a good idea. Aim small, miss small.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #9
    Member Array PairA10s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    Hey PairA10s! I'm the same "TSiWRX" that's on OFCC.

    I think I missed you there, but as I saw your posting here today, I figure that I'd try you here, too.

    Do you have a closer picture of the first one?

    It looks like you had some misses, at 10-13 ft., there.... How were you shooting? Slow, methodical shots while stationary - or were those from a concealment draw (speaking of - were these configured as you would normally carry your multiple concealed firearms? [ ref: New CCW ] and moving fast?

    You said more here than you did on the Ohioans for Concealed Carry Forums - at least now I know that you'd been shooting as a rapid string, which partially answers the question above: but even if that's the case, at that range, I honestly believe that there should have been no misses: at least not on a full-sized target.

    I'm no gunslinger, either - as anyone who was at Commence Firearms Academy (Cleveland, Ohio) class this past weekend will readily tell you. Cross that with the fact that I'm a newbie to "the gun world" and only been shooting since November of this past year, and yep, I've got plenty of learning to do. But I honestly believe that at that range, if you were stationary, regardless of how fast you were shooting, there should not be any misses at all.

    Also, did you try patterning your Public Defender at different ranges? I would imagine that if you were going to use buckshot or birdshot in that pistol, the concerns for it would be the same as with a shotgun - i.e. that you've got to know how the gun and the ammo you're using patterns at-distance, so that you'll know if you can safely take the shot.

    Please don't take this the wrong way - I'm trying to be constructive. :)

    I'm still working on the "slow is smooth" part of that old equation.
    TSiWRX I will see if I can find a closer picture of any of these.

    I start shooting when I have all 3 guns loaded and reloads laying nearby and have the target at the predetermined range(ie 5-15 feet).

    I see that I need to slow down and shoot not try to hit as fast as i can reload.

    This was my 1st time with the Public Defender(I bought it about 1 hour before the range session) and I bought whatever ammo I could buy at the shop when I picked up the gun.

    I plan to carry with PDX1,00 & 000 Buck(and maybe .410 Deer Slugs)so I need to get some more to try to figure where it hits.

    I still have not aquired all of the guns and holsters I want nor have I figured out the logistics of carrying so I haven't carried as of yet.

    Thanks guys for all of the feedback.
    Last edited by PairA10s; August 19th, 2011 at 12:12 PM. Reason: 1 more idea.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. "
    (Benjamin Franklin)

    'God made man and woman; Colonel Colt made them equal'." (Ann Coulter)

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Heya PairA10s -

    Quote Originally Posted by PairA10s View Post
    I start shooting when I have all 3 guns loaded and reloads laying nearby and have the target at the predetermined range(ie 5-15 feet).

    I see that I need to slow down and shoot not try to hit as fast as i can reload.
    Also, try to take note of what happens immediately after your reloads - I'm a beginner, like you, and this was/is (I'm currently working on this ) one of my weak areas: I tend to get so jacked up from an emergency/combat reload or from working a malfunction drill that my first shot coming out of it was/is worse than my usual. This is something which I think is unacceptable: hence my specific focus on this, as of my last two range sessions and classes.

    Since it looks like the majority of your shots are on-target, I'm wondering if there's a pattern here that we're not picking up on, since we're just looking at the aftermath of the entire shoot, rather than as discrete shots.

    Take your time and get your shots, that's the most important thing for beginners like us. All three of the schools/instructors I've studied under so far are fond of two sayings: one, that "misses don't count," and two, that "every shot you take is a liability, you're accountable for EACH projectile coming out of that muzzle."

    Don't miss. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

    Focus on getting it smooth by being slow and deliberate. Speed comes naturally.

  11. #11
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    Slow is smooth, Smooth is fast, Fast is fine, Accuracy if final.

    As already stated slow down get the basics down and then work up to your failure point, then back off and start again.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Ah, so there's the rest of that equation. Thank you.

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    Senior Member Array sjones's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to put you down but think of every one of your misses could be hitting a person behind your target.That would be terrible to have on your heart for the rest of your life,not to mention the costs to you.Go for the center mass,the head is too small a target and its always moving.Practice till you can get them all in the center mass and then slowly bring up your speed.As you get better you will notice that you are shooting smoother and smoothness equals speed. sj

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    OP, my hats off to ya for tryin your hand at rapid fire. I know you had a hellava fun time doin that. Sometimes it's good to just have a little fun and sling some lead. And, sometimes the results can be as informative as fun.

    I would encourage this type of practice over target shooting for defensive purposes, but as others have stated, start closer, and slow down until you work up to speed where hits are boringly regular, and work your way back.
    PairA10s likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I'm going to take a position that will probably be controversial.

    I believe that the Smooth/Fast axiom is somewhat misleading.

    To be fast, one must be smooth, but being smooth does not necessarily mean one is fast. Extreme speed comes from specific efforts to be fast after becoming smooth and maintaining that smoothness in the efforts to increase speed. Speed is not an automatic result of smoothness, it requires specific efforts.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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