http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...TOPIC_ID=11156Originally Posted by xeero
This is a discussion on When do you ever trust again? A gun that is within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Reply to xeero. The Glock 36 needs an Iron Grip and a locked wrist to function 100% Seriously....Grip the 36 with your gun hand until ...
Reply to xeero.
The Glock 36 needs an Iron Grip and a locked wrist to function 100%
Seriously....Grip the 36 with your gun hand until your knuckles turn white then ease back your grip pressure a tiny bit.
That is how tight that 36 firearm needs to be held for defensive shooting.
If you are holding it less tight than that...then expect Failure To Feed malfunctions and jams.
If it's a chronic issue with the particular gun that I can't seem to fix, I won't trust my life with that gun. It it's an issue that was easily resolved with some buffing and polishing or similar, it's got to pass through around 500 more rounds flawlessly before I use it as a carry gun.
I had a Para C6.45 LDA, brand new as soon as that model came out. The guide rod assembly shot out the front of the pistol. Upon inspection, I saw the welding came apart. Para fixed the problem immediately, even the QC guy called all the way from Canada. But other Para owners' reported the same thing happening, and the new"beefed up" guide rod assembly mailed to me appeared to be exactly the same as the old one. I installed the new rod and promptly traded the gun, detailing every problem I had with the pistol to the new owner before the trade. I just couldn't trust it.
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
I WAS interested in a Kahr prior to shooting one at the range. It had a FTF about once a magazine, and it would stop well short of battery several times (middle of the mag) throughout the 100 rnd session, AND- The first round of any given magazine would also stop short of battery, regardless of chambering procedure, slingshot, or slide release both stopped about 1/2"-1" short of battery, I had to manually engage to battery EVERY MAG. As stated by many above, this really ruined my "looking forward" to obtaining one of this little machines. I do not know if the problem was the maintenance, break in, or the gun. It was a range rental, so maintenance might have been very relaxed or non-existant, As for break in I dismiss this reason because it was a rental again, i doubt a range is going to put a brand new pistol for rental on a range, that only left me w/ the thought that either THOSE guns were crap, or THE GUN i was holding was crap. (Range Pistol was a Kahr P9, I am Interested in PM9 or PM40) Either one did not sit well with me knowing my life may be on the line. HOwever...I went to the gunshow both days this weekend, and couldnt help but eye the Kahr. At first I was dissapointed and wanted nothing to do with said weapon. Now my interest seems to be re-kindling for some reason. I love the way the tiniest car is constructed, it still appeals to me for a Concealed. I just hate to buy a gun that you have to sell because of some BS. I have heard enough Kahr horror stories/warm and fuzzy stories to last me for a year. Its either the perfect gun or Murphy's Law pistol. One is what I want, the other is a complete nightmare... and the nightmare part is what concerns me.
Pretty bold statement QK. Although the thread that gunmetal posted was very interesting. I myself was considering a G36 to add to the collection. This definitely makes me reconsider that urge.
Unified Sportsmen of Florida Member
Only after a couple thousand error-free rounds. Some don't ever make it. But, then, I've been very choosy in my selections. Have gotten either very lucky or I'm wise beyond my years.... about trusting guns that start out bad. Do you ever trust them again?
My short list:
- Browning BDM 9mm DA/SA pistol -- Once broken in after ~5K rounds, rarely failed over the next ~30K rounds, and nearly all of those were traced to cleaning and/or bad individual rounds. Am breaking in another BDM now, and it's not yet above 2K rounds. In another 3-5K rounds, it should be ready to use as a go-anywhere carry unit.
- S&W 442 Airweight 38SPL revolver -- Shot only rarely, but never had a failure. Worst problem was inability to eject rounds near the grip, given lack of space.
- CZ P-01 9mm compact DA/SA pistol -- Only 1700 rounds through it, as of today, but highly reliable out of the box. After the trigger/action job, it should be dead flat reliable as the primary carry rig.
- KelTec P3AT 380ACP -- Unknown, yet, as it has not arrived. By all accounts, a tuned P3AT is a very reliable BUG. We'll see, as I intend to shoot the snot out of it for ~3mos until it behaves perfectly.
Haven't owned any others. Though, I have shot plenty, including a friend's highly-reliable Browning HiPower 9mm, another friend's Glock 19 and a couple of larger revolvers.
Why shoot so much? Springs can be replaced. The right pistol for me is plenty stout, enough to handle 10K rounds of practice without breaking, and a life of 50K rounds or more. (At least, those are the only ones I consider.) Add to that the simple fact that ammunition has variable build characteristics and you get the reality that any given ammo can fail in any given firearm ... until you prove it works (via practice) in your specific gun.
Yes. Same is true of any variation from perfect shooting, including equipment, technique or conditions. Heck, the original .45's used by GI's in WW2 were able to handle a lot of muck and crud but still keep firing. This tight-fit syndrome is partly to blame, IMO. A carry firearm shouldn't need to be tuned like a target piece, which can detract from its survivability when the chips are down. (The AK-47 is known for this great feature, as well.)Originally Posted by gunmetal
Last edited by ccw9mm; August 7th, 2006 at 02:48 PM.
The G-36 is not my fav either mine was inaccurate as it tis shot worse than broad side of barn switching to different glock i got tight groups switch back to it and BOB again so it went ..36 sucks IMHO
IMHO if the gun will run 200 to 300 rounds spread over multiple range sessions with NO cleaning , i will trust it .
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We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
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I think you are right that the remaining trust depends on the nature of the failure and the repair (if any). I wouldn't lose faith in the weapon over a failure that turned out to be caused by my choice of ammo.
I trust my 226 as much as I've ever trusted any weapon. Over 2500 rounds through it, now without a single failure. None. That said, I still practice failure drills. If a part were to fail, and I got it repaired, and it gave me 500 rounds of flawless performance, then I'd probably be back near where I am now as far as trusting it, in part because of the make and manufacture.
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Good point. Neither will I, assuming a correction is found.Originally Posted by Tom357
I'm dealing with just such an ammo issue in my Browning BDM 9mm failing to accept the CorBon 9mm JHP 115gr +P's. Whether they're shorter or my barrel's ramp needs severe polishing to accommodate, it's unknown at this point. Likely, another brand/model of bullet will be required. To date, I've had 100% reliability with the Remington Golden Saber JHP 115gr +P in this gun. Not a single failure of any kind, so far. This was the same with a prior BDM I had, as well, across ~35K+ rounds.
I have a couple of guns that I can and do trust to serve me and my family with no problems. One is my PT-101 that has eaten 20k+ rounds in the last 12 years with no failures until recently. I attribute the same failures to the magazine which is also 12 years old and on the original spring (new ones are definately in order).
The other is my BUG that I have put 106 rounds through. Yes, you read that right, 106 rounds, and I trust it completely. I have done everything I can think of to make it fail save bolting the slide to the frame, and nothing. No failures of any sort. I cleaned it after I bought it, shot a box of ammo through it, and dropped it into my pocket. I didn't even clean the lint out of it when i shot it this last Thursday.
Firearms are machines. Machines break. Some break more than others, and some almost never will. Some can be fixed, and some cant.
On the rare occasion that I encounter a failure with one of my firearms, I go through a procedure much like the one we used when I worked as a tractor mechanic. I seek out the source of the porblem by eliminating parts/componets until I find the one that attributed to the failure. Once I locate and solve the problem, I test it, and then trust it.
Sometimes, I think people tend to have what I call the "titanic mentality" . This is when people buy a gun, and expect it to run 100% forever, after all it is a modern firearm, the peak of technology etc.... Every machine will fail at some point, and so will every firearm. It may never happen anytime soon, but it will happen before the gun turns back to dust.
This mentaility comes into play when someone experiances a failure with a gun that they heard was fail-safe or that they trusted for a period of time.
They immediately distrust the weapon partially because they thought it was impervious to failure. They are shaken, think it is only a fluke, and try again...when it malfunctions again after no correction, then they automaticly jump to blaming the gun. "Something must be wrong...surely not my fault, this gun is supposed to never fail, it passed ________ torture test. It must be defective.....". The bottom line is that thousands of "defective" guns get traded in because of a simple problem (user interface, springs, magazines etc.), or because someone has tried to fix a problem that didnt exist.
So long as I can diagnose the source of the problem, correct it and test it...I will trust it again. But just like some machines, some guns will malfunction and break too often, or due to design failures....these are the ones that I would not trust my life to.
Last edited by hsuCowboy98; August 7th, 2006 at 07:52 PM.
Fear No Evil.
If it can be fixed, I will teat it and once it performs to my satisfaction I will trust it. MY PT140 did Kb. I could not get over seeing the frame split open and the possibility I could have incured from it Kb'ing.
Alot depends on the nature of the failure.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
I had a failure to feed problem with a Sig P239 SAS (.40) I just bought. I just sent it back to SigArms for repair. But my faith was shaken in the weapon... it better perform flawlessly when I get it back.
How long was the break-in period you gave it? 1000 rounds of mixed JHP/FMJ/WC? Less?Originally Posted by JohnKelly
I have yet to find a semi-auto pistol that's 100% reliable out of the box even throughout the break-in period. A CZ P-01 9mm I just bought comes the closest, but even that had a couple of minor failures. Though, I an can attribute those to (deliberate) failure to clean and (deliberate) testing of a dozen different types of rounds, many of which won't ever be preferred ammo for this specific gun.
Thats why I carry Milspec 1911s. Military tolerance isnít known for bing precise. Hey, they do sell to the lowest bidder after all. My Gramps 1911 Remington Rand (made in my home town of Syracuse N.Y.) seems like its about to fall apart when its handled. But he never had any problems with it, after decades of use.Heck, the original .45's used by GI's in WW2 were able to handle a lot of muck and crud but still keep firing.
On the other hand I bought a Springfield G.I. Milspec from hell. I had a smith work on it, then with the help of the moderators here I worked on it. With no luck at all. I finally sent it back to SA. After a two week turnaround, I got it back. I fired 500rds of WWB, another 500rds of carry ammo, then finally fired 250rds of extreme rapid fire w/h carry ammo. Now I trust it more than my Glock that never had any problems.