Why Rob Pincus now prefers the 9mm over .40 S&W...

[Mike1956]

[QUOTE=tcon67;2040252]

Yeah, thats why he had to write this long correction for endorsing the .40 for so long.

Live and learn.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Doghandler]

I see nothing wrong with an instructor providing some basic input to a student who shows up with some cockamamie firearm as their selected go to gun.

That works for me - a small cockamamie firearm* - thanks.

*LCR

[Gaius]

There are also some students that do not own a gun and are borrowing / renting for a class and are looking for input as to what to buy.

Very true. In my NRA Basic Pistol Course, many of the students do not yet own a handgun. By far the most common question I get after the class is what gun do I recommend. I do try to avoid cheerleading for any one particular quality gun, but then I get the inevitable question, what do I carry? (Walther PPS). I do try and explain the various pros and cons to the students, and stress how it is important that the weapon chosen fits the student the best, bearing in mind everyone's hand and comfort zone is a bit different, and most important, what does the student intend to use the gun for? Concealed carry? Home defense? Target shooting? You all get the idea. But as an instructor, you really can't avoid the issue.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Rob says....

"1. The Myth of the “One Shot Stop”, Part 1: Faster Strings of Fire are Better.
2. The Myth of the “One Shot Stop”, Part 2: Higher Capacity is Better.
3. Negligible Difference in Practical Wounding Potential.
4. Lower Cost, High Value Practice"


And some of us came to these same conclusions almost 10 years ago.

Forget all the gun magazine crap about 1 shot stopping power. Most people stop from fear or pain.But some people are not afraid of anything and some feel no pain due to adrenalin or chemicals in their system.

Those that do not stop from fear or pain will have to be stopped by drop in blood pressure caused by blood loss, paralysis caused by spinal injury or destruction of the brain. Holes in hearts , spines and brains are HOLES in HEARTS , SPINES and BRAINS no matter what puts them there.

While bigger holes are usually better than small holes more holes is ALWAYS better than less holes. So if we can put multiple holes in vital organs QUICKLY (like a SMG or a shotgun does) we are going to get better results than firing 1 and waiting for them to fall down.

And since all the major ammo makers make their duty ammo to penetrate 12" and expand to 1.5x their original diameter there just is not that much difference in performance. Heavier bullets DO plow thru bone better than lighter bullets, but again....if they are designed to do the same thing (penetrate 12" ) then there just is not much difference in what they do.....


And even if our pitiful 9mm is" ONLY a 50% stopper" , does that mean that if I shoot you 4 times it is a 200% stopper?

And I don't care who you are, you will always shoot 9mm faster and more accurately (especially 1 handed) than you will shoot .40 or .45 .

And it is cheaper to practice with....

Frankly most people would be far better served to spend less time worrying about WHICH caliber to use and go practice with what they have. Hits in important places stop people. That comes from practice.

Some of us figured that out a long time ago and have been recommending 9mm for civilian personal defense for some time now.

[Scouse]

As I was a 9mm fan from the start, 1960s UK. Living in the UK till 1965, Australia till 1968, Canada till moving to Gods Country, the US of A in 2003. Shooting IPSC (New sport to us in Ontario Canada in 1980) went to what every body else used the .45 ACP, 1911. Till at a major IPSC match, I missed the safety catch! So in 1986, went back to 9mm, in my new Glock 17.

Coined a phrase back then, "More is better, always" stuck to it ever since.

The perfect carry Gear, Glock 19, Glock holster, spare Magazine, the Glock 17 one, two extra rounds, and you do not pinch your hand, on a reload! Surefire flash light, also in Glock single mag; pouch.

Wavered between 127g +P+ Ranger, and 147g non P+ Ranger T. Carry ammo. On the 147g to date!

Good Man Rob!

Hope there is no spelling errors, can not get spell check to work!

[HK Dan]

I know Rob Pincus. He's a straight shooter who thinks about what he teaches. He is a real, no BS kind of guy, and you can rest assured that if he tells you something, he absolutely believes it to be the best answer at that time. BTW I agree with his assessment. There is no practical difference between a 9mm and a .45 in terms of terminal effect, so why not have the higher capacity? For some of us it's sentimentality or just a belief that it can't be true. In those cases--more power to ya. Meanwhile, I'll continue to carry my .40s and my extra mags, but I'll think harder about 9mm for the next generation thanks to Senior Pincus.

[jsunsr]

Hey fellas, I don't correct your spelling, don't make fun of my abreviations. You knew what I meant.

[Lyndo]

I never liked the .40 simply did not fill a void for me. I prefer the .45 but have never felt unarmed with a 9mm. I think a 9 would be excellent for new shooters because of the cheaper price of ammo allowing for more practice. I respect a man who can say he was wrong and be very open about it.

[AZ Hawk]

also to think about as 9mm ammo is cheaper for practice yes true, but I'm sure that alot of people carry 9mm+P or +P+ rounds. Now if you want to get technical you should be practicing with the "same" ammo you carry. and +P/+P+ ammo is not cheap.

Even though the recoil results of a regular 9mm round is negligible to that of the +P or +P+ rounds, Just at the second shot from a 9mm is .2 seconds faster than if you were shooting a .40S&W, I see the same type of negligance in the thoughts of this "9mm= faster shooting theory"

You can get NATO 9mm FMJ which shoots at the same or similar speeds and pressures of +P 9mm. It costs $11.95 per box of 50. I've never found a box of .40 S&W ammo (excluding that crappy Tula stuff...) for under $13.50 per 50. Then, 1000 rounds of 124 gr. NATO 9mm weighs ~ 30 lbs. including packaging, while 1000 rounds of 180 gr. .40 S&W weighs ~ 40 lbs. including packaging, so you also have to pay more for shipping.

[Rob Pincus]

Thanks Again for a great conversation from those of you who understood the points I was trying to make.

Also, thanks for the many "kudos" for simply saying what I thought needed to be said. Some questioned the "need" to write the article in the first place. Honestly, I put it out to my newsletter and blog simply because I had students in classes who were asking my why I changed my mind, based on things I had written previously. It has come up often enough this year, that I wanted to explain it fully. It also happened that I wanted to make a point about the importance of evolution and being open to the idea that what we passionately believe today, might turn out to be wrong when we learn something new tomorrow.... hence the bigger point of the article.

-RJP

[Sgt Z Squad]

Here are two videos (one of each caliber). The .40 cal 180gr gold dot went 13 inches in and expanded to .68 inches. 9mm 147gr hst went 13 inches also and expanded to .66. Would this make a significant difference in a human target? This particular youtube channel has a TON of videos of different bullets, weights, and calibers, worth looking at, you'd be amazed at some bullets that fail completely.

What was obvious to me was the movement of the gelatin block between the .40 S&W and the 9MM. Much more evident with the .40.

[AZ Hawk]

What was obvious to me was the movement of the gelatin block between the .40 S&W and the 9MM. Much more evident with the .40.

Interesting.

I wasn't aware that the "movement of the gelatin block" was relevant in regards to how we measure the effectiveness of a caliber. It could be relevant, however, if humans were five to ten pound blocks of 10% ballistic gelatin...

[AFVeteran19]

Two of my thoughts on this

1. My xdm 9mm is a good choice (20 rounds on board) although I rarely carry it. And
2. I usually carry my 45 xd and I carry 14 rounds of 45 and if you need more than 14 rounds of 45 I better make it to the back seat of crew cab truck to get my AR

[neverknow]

I used the same logic when I switched from the .45 to the .40. I might use it again to go to the 9mmm and then the .380. Then I will go to the .32 after I get to my super high cap, fast and cheap .22 that is only a few millimeters smaller then the .45. I will start over with the .45 or ibcould save a lot of time and stick with the best advice I have gotten yet" carry the largest caliber you can shoot accuretly"

[AZ Hawk]

I used the same logic when I switched from the .45 to the .40. I might use it again to go to the 9mmm and then the .380. Then I will go to the .32 after I get to my super high cap, fast and cheap .22 that is only a few millimeters smaller then the .45. I will start over with the .45 or ibcould save a lot of time and stick with the best advice I have gotten yet" carry the largest caliber you can shoot accuretly"

Yeah... You've totally missed the intent of Pincus' thoughts on the matter.