Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose. - Page 3

Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose.

This is a discussion on Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I can understand a new shooter, who has no knowledge of guns, and has no one to guide them in picking their first weapon, going ...

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Thread: Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose.

  1. #31
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    I can understand a new shooter, who has no knowledge of guns, and has no one to guide them in picking their first weapon, going with what LEO use in their area. However, once a person has experience/knowledge of weapons. Go with what suits your needs, not what suits the LEO/military needs. Rarely will they be the same.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vstromrider View Post
    Matthew you venting at someone in particular... The testing that large police forces or military can afford , helps alot in knowing what works and what does not work. Use it as a reference.. or not Is up too you. I choose to use it...
    No, not at all. Actually I found it humorous how many people took the original post to be an attack on their choices or method of choosing personally, some became defensive; funny. It was meant as a general statement to create discussion. Some really came back with great insight, others... not so much.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    I admit that I haven't read all the responses in the thread so if someone has already said this I apologize in advance. I think the primary reason some shooters (and carriers) base their decisions on firearms off of military and LEO is that those guns tend to have a lot more real world "on the street" or "In the battle field" data behind them. For example. How many times have you heard "Well, the snub nosed .38 was put a lot of bad guys down in the hand's of police detectives in the 60s, 70s and 80s?" Or "US Special forces still choose the 1911 platform because they prefer the .45 acp and amazing accuracy". There is truth in both of those statements. There is a good deal of data on a lot of weapons because they are used by the military and LE. I think like others have said that it's just one piece of information to add to the overall pool of information when making your choice.
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

  4. #34
    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    I don't carry a Glock because 65% of LE carry it. I carry a Glock because the Gunny told me to. :D
    Hoganbeg likes this.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    I don't carry a Glock because 65% of LE carry it. I carry a Glock because the Gunny told me to. :D
    I don't carry a Glock because 65% of LE carry it. I don't carry a Glock because I can't stand the things. :)
    Last edited by rstickle; September 16th, 2011 at 09:30 AM. Reason: Language work around
    Harryball likes this.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by high pockets View Post
    I began a retort, but decided adding to a flame war is too tiring.
    I still would like to know what LE bidding processes have to do with the suitability of a weapon for civilian defensive carry. I see no correlation whatsoever. Most agencies issue good quality sidearms that are tested before being deployed. One should not pick a handgun based solely on what LE and the military uses, but it can be an indicator of handgun performance when an agency uses the same model for several years without complaint. The typical large metropolitan police agency will use their pistols in defensive roles many more times than an average civilian who carries for self defense, and this data is useful in determining what works.

    If the best that you can come up with is a "flame," then nevermind. I have my answer.
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  7. #37
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    guess we shouldn't choose our ammo based on what LEO (FBI) or military personnel say/use either.

    I personally choose the guns based on what I like and not what is used by others. I choose my ammo based somewhat on what others say, but mainly on which ones blow stuff up the best and go the deepest.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  8. #38
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    Just a thought, aren't the Miltary weaponry selected by Politicans? They gave us the 5.56mm and took away our 7.62? The only 5.56 round that I would ever consider is the new Green Tip and that came 40 years after the intro!

    They also recommend retiring the most beautiful aircraft in the Air Force! The A10 Warthog!


    In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBachman View Post
    I don't understand this philosophy... It doesn't really matter what weapon or caliber you use to stop an eminent threat. Are there any cases in which a GOOD SHOT was subject to scrutiny due to caliber and/or weapon choice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    Normally I agree with you on just about everything limatunes, but on this one, not so much. I honestly can't see that line ever being something that helps in defending your use of deadly force in self-defense. I'd have to believe that by the time that situation arises, anyone who wants to know is only thinking a gun is a gun is a gun.
    Massad Ayoob has written a couple of articles on being able to defend your choice of caliber and firearm in the event it is brought up in court and has given real life cases where individuals have been looked at as blood thirsty or "out to kill" because of their firearm or caliber choice. Anything around .45ACP and over seems to be particularly targeted.

    I've already seen it in some "real crime" stories. Someone sees .45ACP casings at a crime scene and says, "Wow! That's a big caliber. Whoever this was wanted to kill."

    Well, no crap! You don't shoot at someone you want to tickle. The caliber doesn't make a difference as far as intent is concerned. WE know this but your average lay person does not. They think big bullet/big gun = big chip on shoulder and a desire to mow down the masses. They see movies like Dirty Harry and think, "All they want to do is blow peoples' heads clean off! Oh My!"

    Even gun people who are still slightly ignorant look at people who carry bigger bore firearms to be a bit off. My own father has questioned why I would want to carry a beast like a .45.

    Generally, in good shoot self defense cases you won't even get to trial much less have to worry about defending your gun or caliber but in the off chance that it does go to trial I've read several cases where prosecutors have dragged out more than just the caliber and type of gun as a cheap shot to paint the defendant as a murderer but also downright misinformed the jury about how firearms work to make the shooter look deliberate and blood thirsty.

    Massad Ayoob has written that if you are new to carry and looking for a place to start a very defensible firearm is one which local or state law enforcement carry. That way a prosecutor cannot try to slander your choice of either caliber or firearm. I've also read this recommended by other reputable gun writers.

    Now, as someone who has worked in a couple of gun stores I can attest that the most annoying words I heard out of a customers mouth were always, "My XYZ, who is a Cop," or "My xyz, who is in the military, told me to get THIS!"

    And, yes, usually it ended up being a duty weapon like the M9 or a Glock 17, etc.

    What has been said by others is very true. There is usually a selection process that needs to be gone through before departments or the military will choose a particular firearm for duty and both the M9 and the entire line of Glocks have proven to be fine firearms indeed, BUT that doesn't mean they are a perfect fit for everyone.. especially considering they are both full-frame firearms not really intended to be concealed and generally not concealed by law enforcement or military.

    So, typically, before just bowing down to the customers wish I would usually question their motives behind purchasing said firearm, try to get a little more information (like what the intended purpose of the firearm will be, previous experience, etc) and advice accordingly. More often than not I would try to steer them away from what XYZ military/LEO guy told them to get.

    But, as stated, that doesn't make those firearm selections invalid.

    I'm not necessarily one of those people who says you should or should not carry what local/state LE carries but I won't say it's a bad idea or one shouldn't do it if that's what they really want.

    Some people just want to have what their Marine Corps brother was issued or their police officer uncle has.. there's nothing wrong with that.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthew03 View Post

    Reference the US Military's adoption of the M9; it didn't actually outperform the competition, Beretta was simply allowed knowledge of the bid by Sig and under cut that bid slightly. Not to mention the fact that the contract allowed us to put intercontinental ballistic missiles in Italy during the Cold War.
    You may find this GOA report interesting:

    http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf

    Way too many "stories" about how the M9 got picked...

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post
    turn a bunch of monkeys loose in the jungle, and eventually they all will end up at the same banana tree.

    My EDC is a Glock 19 9mm which is issued by both the Chicago PD and the NY PD
    Own a Glock 32 .357 SIG, which is a compact version of the Glock 31 carried by the US Secret Service
    Own a Glock 23 .40SW which is standard issue of new FBI Agents.

    Am I copying these Law Enforcement Agencies by owning and carrying similar firearms?

    Nope.....monkeys all ended up at the same banana tree.
    The Chicago Police Department does not issue any guns. The Glock 19 is one of the guns on a long list of authorized carry weapons. So is the Ruger, S&W, Sig, SA,'s. AFAIK, the USSS carry Sig 229's in 357 Sig.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog7972s View Post
    The Chicago Police Department does not issue any guns. The Glock 19 is one of the guns on a long list of authorized carry weapons. So is the Ruger, S&W, Sig, SA,'s. AFAIK, the USSS carry Sig 229's in 357 Sig.
    thank you for the corrections. Chicago PD only requires their new recruits to use either a G17 or G19 during training......and of course the Secret Service would issue SIGS. How silly of me to think they would carry anything as mundane as a Glock.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  13. #43
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    The recruits are allowed to carry any striker fired pistol such as the Glock,the S&W M&P and the XD. All must be in 9mm. When they get off probation they can then carry a 40 or 45.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    Back when the police predominately used .357 Magunms and .38 Specials, the FBI jumped to the 9mm and semi-auto handguns The first one adopted was the S&W 459 in the early 1980's and they were ear marked for the then new Hostage Rescue Team.
    When first formed in the 1980's the FBI Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) adopted the Browning Hi-Power in 9mm, and later, 1911's (Para Hi-Caps as I recall, but don't quote me), Field SWAT teams were issued S&W 459's and later, SIG/Sauer P226's, and eventually Springfield 1911's. But the FBI did not "jump" to the 9mm, In fact, at the time of the infamous Miami shootout, agents other than HRT/SWAT were still restricted to .38/.357 revolvers, including most of the agents involved in that incident. Personally-purchased S&W and Sig/Sauer semi-autos were finally authorized for most agents in the mid to late-1980's.
    Once the FBI adopted the 9mm, police departments around the country couldn't ditch their S&W revolvers fast enough. Civilian shooters followed suit, and the 9mm became all the rage in the 1980's.
    As stated above, the FBI was, in fact, relatively slow to switch over to semi-autos for general issue. Many State and Local Police agencies adopted semi-autos well ahead of the FBI.
    Then the 1986 Dade County shootout happened. The poorly designed Silver Tip bullet of the era, which had become popular because of the FBI's use of the ammo, was deemed a failure. The FBI had something of a knee jerk reaction and adopted the 10mm. There were factions within the FBI that wanted to keep the 9mm and use more effective ammo, and there were factions that wanted the .45 ACP. But they decided the magic caliber was .40 and set about adopting the 10mm. Of course the 10mm ammo that Norma loaded was hot stuff, and was too much gun for many agents.
    In fact, 1076's were not offered until a few years after the Miami incident, and very few agents opted to have them issued. They proved troublesome, and were recalled.
    The FBI then adopted the "FBI Load" 10mm which was a 180gr JHP loaded to a more modest 950fps. The pistol they adopted was the 1076.
    The .40S&W is essentially the FBI's 10mm "Lite" packaged in a shorter case. Originally derided by some as the ".40 Short and Weak" it now seems to be derided here as too snappy!
    One again the race was on. Everyone had to own a 10mm. Companies started making more and more 10mm's of various designs and S&W sold a metric ton of 1006's, 1076's and every other model they devised in that chambering. Everyone follows the FBI.
    In fact, VERY few agencies ever issued 10mm's, especially S&W 1076's
    Then the FBI decided that the new S&W .40 was better as it allowed a more modest sized pistol to be used. The 10mm wasn't small gun friendly and required a larger framed handgun given the OAL of the cartridge. When the 10mm was dropped by the FBI in favor of the .40 S&W, the move away from 10mm by the gun buying public was swift... so swift that the fledgling nearly died completely. It still barely clings to life...
    In fact, the FBI was rather slow to adopt the .40S&W. That round was developed by S&W as the logical packaging of the FBI's "10mm lite" in a shorter case. The FBI had been issuing 9mm Sig/Sauers and some S&W's (and Federal Hydra-Shock ammunition) as an interim measure when 1076's proved unsatisfactory, but the FBI was slow to adopt a solution "Not Invented Here". The first .40 approved for personal purchase was the S&W Sigma (ugh!), but eventually Sig/Sauers P229's were approved, and finally Glock 9's and .40's. Later, Glock 22/23's were selected as the FBI's first general issue .40 caliber weapons after a competitive evaluation by Quantico of several .40's. The Glock 27 was also continued as a personally-owned option. Most previously-approved weapons were "grandfathered". More recently, Agents who had trouble with the .40's snappy recoil were allowed 9mm Glocks as an alternative.
    This is one of the reasons I refuse to adopt the .40 S&W. First, it's an answer to an non-existent problem.
    In fact, the .40S&W (and it's derivative .357SIG) are the most powerful rounds available in a weapons no larger than the very 9mm's which had been (and, despite the latest magic ammo hype, probably STILL are) inadequate stoppers for over a century. The .45 ACP and 10mm simply do not allow high-capacity pistols of reasonable overall size. These newer calibers' recoil requires some extra skill to master and are not the best choice for the unskilled casual shooter (i.e. "There's no such thing as a free lunch".).
    Secondly, I can't bring myself to follow the pack just because it's the taticool thing to do. Sure, if the .40 S&W actually offered something substantial over the 9mm or .45 ACP I would use it. But as it stands, the .40 S&W is little more than the latest FBI fad and it's popularity in the civilian shooting world is directly related to this.
    Once again, the FBI was late to jump on the .40 bandwagon, and the "Fad" is going strong after two decades, but the many factual errors in your posting are not your fault as the FBI doesn't tend to publish much on this subject for public consumption, and there's a lot of erroneous speculation masquerading as fact out there. For a completely factual (if a bit sketchy in places) outline of the history of FBI weapons by someone who was actually there, see Bill Vanderpool's article in a recent American Rifleman.

    With that being said, the .40 is a fine cartridge.

    Good luck getting the majority of the gun buying public to stop following the FBI, LEO's in general or even the military. The military, for example, has always influenced civilian shooting. There's a few reasons for this.

    1) Surplus rifles
    2) Surplus ammo
    3) Millions of Americans serve in the military and get their first exposure to firearms there, they bond to their weapons and calibers
    4) If you want an effective fighting rifle, most are of military design and hence use military calibers

    There's not much we can do about it. :D
    And, just what do you think "we" need to do about it? If you don't like it, don't buy it!

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog7972s View Post
    The recruits are allowed to carry any striker fired pistol such as the Glock,the S&W M&P and the XD. All must be in 9mm. When they get off probation they can then carry a 40 or 45.
    Wow. Sounds like Chicago PD changes their firearms policy like others change their underwear. A couple of years ago, new recruits were required to carry a G19/17.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

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